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CONLANG  March 2014, Week 3

CONLANG March 2014, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Back, but in lurking mode except for Breta(i)n*is

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 16 Mar 2014 07:45:58 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (68 lines)

On 15/03/2014 20:26, Siva Kalyan wrote:
> [snip] But it would also have unique innovations of its
> own (especially as it's at the very edge of the Romance
> area), and it's not clear how one would come up with
> these (aside from simply copying sound changes from Welsh
> or English, which is precluded here).

Brithenig already copies changes from Welsh.  There would no
point, I think, in just doing an alternative Brithenig,
especially as my timeline's 'point of departure' is
different from that of Brithenig.

I don't see the logic of using English sound changes per_se.

> BTW, among "areal features", you mention "retention of
> [θ] and [ð]". IIRC, both Proto-Celtic and Proto-Gmc have
> these sounds—but Latin of course doesn't (certainly not
> the second one).

[ð] occurred in early French as lenition both of medial /t/
and /d/, e.g. vīta -> viðə; patre(m) -> pɛðrə.  This would
be common also to Brita(i)*is.   In early french we also
find [θ], but only as a allophone of /ð/ in final position.
Thus, e.g. fide(m) -> *foiθ (in Norman French _feiθ_, hence
modern English _faith_.

> Would these sounds be created by a sound change, then, as
> in Brithenig?

Not [θ] - if this sound occurs in Breta(i)n*is it will have
come about the same way.  As for [ð], it is the same in that
lenition of intervocalic /d/ became /ð/; but that change was
common to western Romance as well as Insular Celtic.

However, the lenition of intervocalic /t/ -> /d/ -> /ð/ is a
feature AFAIK only of the Gallo-romance group.

On 15/03/2014 21:48, Alex Fink wrote:
> (Brithenig can be seen as retaining this [D] too, though
> I don't know whether Andrew Smith meant that of it or
> whether it was purely a bogosity.

The change intervocalic /d/ -> /ð/ was common to western
Romance & Insular Celtic - see above.

But Andrew's timeline is different from mine and the
development of his British Romancelang is different from
what I intend.   Personally I think at this stage
comparisons with Brithenig are not helpful.   If I ever get
the language completed then one might wish to compare the two.

It should be recalled that modern Castilian Spanish has both
[θ] and [ð] - so a Romance language with such sounds is not
such a novelty.

But really, at the moment, I am trying to get the _vowels_
sorted out; the consonants can wait.

Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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September 2002, Week 1
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