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AUXLANG  March 2014, Week 4

AUXLANG March 2014, Week 4

Subject:

Re: questions on babel script

From:

Risto Kupsala <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 23:32:20 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (137 lines)

Max Kubierschky kirjoitti 2014-03-24 23:48:
 > Am 24.03.2014 20:59, schrieb Risto Kupsala:
 >> 24.3.2014 1:43, Max Kubierschky wrote:
 >>> * How do you like the idea?
 >>
 >> It's an interesting idea and it's worth testing. It's a good idea to
 >> use natlangs and machine translation, but I don't like the idea that
 >> the vocabulary of Babel Script itself would be only numbers. Writing
 >> is not enough! Sooner or later people would want to talk with each
 >> other in BS, and for that purpose there should be official list of
 >> spoken words. It would not be needed in the beginning but in the long
 >> term.
 > I made up my mind on that. I first opted for renouncing spoken words
 > because of two reasons:
 >
 > * To me, neutrality is a major point. A vocabulary like esperanto or LFN
 > would be too eurocentristic.

There are also more or less evenly global languages like Pandunia, 
Lidepla and Sambahsa.

 > * I want that it is totally acceptable, not to learn the vocabulary. I
 > fear that having a spoken vocabulary would degrade writing in a BX to
 > second rate communication.

That's true.

 > But on the other hand, there are big pros:
 >
 > * All BX will be inherently ugly. It could be ok for political
 > discussions or technical documentation, but by no means for literary
 > works like novels. A version of BS with a vocabulary on its own can also
 > be beautiful.
 > * If BS succeeds and is widely used, the world would also gain a spoken
 > auxlang in the end.
 > * BS could get support from dedicated auxlangers, who want to have a
 > spoken language.
 >
 > So now I vote for an a priory vocabulary based on a relatively small and
 > very productive set of morphemes. Thus I hope to keep the language
 > neutral and learning the vocabulary manageable.

Okay. Unfortunately I must admit that I have never been interested in 
any a priori auxlang. Fortunately there is still natlang BX... Come to 
think of it, could it happen that for example Babel English would become 
the spoken norm?

 > Lets call this spoken language Babel Talk (BT). It is important, that BT
 > is not BS.
 > BS still has to be abstract. We need this to organize language
 > development. As described, it must be possible to add words ad hoc.
 > These must be marked as experimental, as there can be a lot of reasons
 > to depricate them again and replace them with other words with slightly
 > modified meanings. You can easily reserve a number for being used in a
 > single text and then use it never again. Doing so with BT words would
 > vastly pollute name space. All words of acceptable length and ease of
 > pronounciation would be used up immediatly.
 >
 >>
 >> I'm not sure how well pidgin-like grammar would work in any language.
 >> Languages can be very different from one another with regard to word
 >> order.
 >
 > I hope, that it should be possible to become accustomed to a new word
 > order in a couple of hours. After all, you don't need to learn
 > vocabulary or flections.

There is still much to learn if everything is done with isolating 
syntax: sentence word order, noun phrase word order, verb phrase word 
order, interrogative clause word order, prepositions or postpositions, etc.

 >> There are also questions about parts of speech and word selection. For
 >> example, which word form is used in BX for a concept that has both
 >> verb and noun side, such as "to speak" vs. "speech", or should there
 >> be two separate words?
 >
 > This is indeed a problem. I think, the solution must be different words
 > for noun and verb. Otherwise, it would cause to much confusion. For
 > example in german, the noun that is closest to "sprechen" (speak), is
 > "Sprache" (language). Speech translates to "Rede".

What if there is only one word for both verb and noun, like "talk" and 
"love" in English? ;)

 > An other example: While the meaning of "work" as a verb is quite clear,
 > as a noun it can mean very different things as "job" or "oeuvre".
 > Therefore in Babel English "work" should be a verb only and "job" and
 > "oeuvre" should be nouns. When you write "work", the editor should
 > inform you by a color code or the like, that you have written a verb.
 >
 >>> * Could you imagine using such a system?
 >>
 >> Sure. I like the idea that machines would be harnessed for the good of
 >> auxlang.
 >>
 >>> * Have you seen any similar proposes/attempts/experiments?
 >>
 >> Not exactly.
 >>
 >> You gave me an idea! Imagine a language that uses particles to mark
 >> every content word, but every content word could be written in natlang
 >> like in your Babel Script. Say "ga" marks subject, "ru" marks verb,
 >> "o" marks object.
 >>
 >> I ga love ru you o.
 >> Ich ga lieben ru du o.
 >> Mi ga ami ru vi o.
 >> Minš ga rakastaa ru sinš o.
 >> Watashi ga ai ru anata o.
 >> Wo ga ai ru ni o.
 >> Mimi ga penda ru wewe o.
 >
 > Would you really want to write or even speak something like this?

Yes, I could live with it. In this kind of interlanguage it could be 
beneficial to make the grammar visible. It would be easy to parse by 
humans and computers alike.

 > I opt for:
 >
 > I love you.
 > Ich lieben du.
 > Mi ami vi.
 > Minš rakastaa sinš.
 > Watashi ai anata.
 > Wo ai ni.
 > Mimi penda wewe.

That looks nice but it is only a 3-word sentence. What about a 20-word 
sentence? Could be more challenging.

Anyway, I have built a syntactic grammar for Pandunia, an auxlang that I 
am working with. So yes, I prefer syntax over particles. But I try to be 
open-minded for other possibilities.

--Risto

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