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CONLANG  March 2014, Week 4

CONLANG March 2014, Week 4

Subject:

Re: A History of Angosian Language and Society

From:

Daniel Bowman <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 08:10:19 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (170 lines)

> You got me, I did totally forget about your conceit when I wrote that.
>  That is an eminently sensible explanation.
>

I think I will continue in this vein.  I don't really believe in absolute
knowledge, whether in "reality," my conworlds, or my conlang.  Not
everything is known about what happened on Anga, and we'll never really
know, even if I somehow become the next Robert Jordan and write tens of
thousands of pages set there.  Since Dr. Lucero's culture is more
technologically advanced than the civilizations on Anga, his remarks and
conclusions raise questions on the role of colonialism and hegemony on the
reinterpretation of "native" cultures.

>
> >> >However, in one site (the modern day native city of Streydan), a
> pivotal
> >> event changed the course of Angosian civilization.  A source about 300
> >> years later speaks of an "angel" (Angosey:  al kayetana) appearing to a
> >> village woman.  Over the course of the next twenty years, the angel
> >> instructed her on the method of forecasting the weather based on the
> >> positions of the  27 other planets visible in the night sky,
> >>
> >> Ah, is this something to do with the origin of the Angosey base 28,
> then?
> >>  What's a "planet", and is there (exactly) one celestial luminary that's
> >> not reckoned among them?  (A sun?  Anga itself, if their cosmology was
> >> advanced enough then to see it as of the same kind?)
> >
> >Yes, I think there's a connection with the numbering system.  A "planet"
> is
> >the same in this place as it is here in the Solar System (a "large" body
> in
> >hydrostatic equilibrium). There are, in fact, three suns (not failing to
> >suggest some connection with Christian myth, just saying :-)).  I believe
> >other stars are visible, but I'm not quite decided on that point yet.
> >During the time of climate stability, nothing was visible beyond the
> >planet's atmosphere, although diffuse light did make it through sufficient
> >to sustain the world.  There's a whole cosmic drama behind that, but
> that's
> >another post for another day.
>
> Several more posts for several more days!
>
> In any case, in Occidental Earthly cultures, there are various
> specialnesses of the number 7 (e.g. the length of the week) that trace back
> to seven being the number of planets, but the planets are
>   moon, Mercury, Venus, sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn.
> If there are 27 planets-in-the-modern-sense plus other bodies that aren't
> planets-i-t-m-s but also go about in the sky, they may or may not have been
> counted in the total; but if the special number obtained from this count
> was 27 it would be surprising if they went for base 28, not 27, on those
> grounds.  (I don't know of a single Earthly culture where the people looked
> at their two hands and then sprung for base 11.)
>

Unless they recognize that Anga is the 28th planet?

>
> And I'm not very good at noticing connexions with Christian myth unless
> they're more obvious than (even?) that...
>

Sorry, it reflects the Trinity.  The number three holds special association
for me even beyond that.  There are three dimensions, and three is half of
six, the first perfect number.

>
> >> >The increasingly sophisticated mathematical developments and
> flourishing
> >> religious practice demanded a less cumbersome writing system, and thus
> >> within about half a millennium a "proto-runic" script was developed.
> >>
> >> This will then be the point in time at which the script descends to
> >> alphabetic from whatever it was before (syllabic, or something even
> >> hairier?).  Now why would these developments have motivated an
> _alphabet_,
> >> specifically?
> >
> >Is an alphabet more efficient at encoding large amounts of technical terms
> >rapidly?  An interesting question.
>
> Well, the Sinosphere gets by just fine in the modern era using logographic
> writing for technical terms.  But in those cases the technical terms are
> assembled using native morphology the writing system is familiar with, so
> there is no trouble.  I guess that if the technical terms were borrowed,
> and borrowings weren't written with logograms but with a dedicated more
> phonetic sub-script (like
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_transcription#Transcription_table,
> or somewhat like Egyptian group writing), this could lead to greater
> visibility of the phonetic sub-script and tip it towards eventually taking
> over.  But on the first hand, the phonetic subscript of a logography
> probably would be unlikely to be an ālphabet as opposed to something closer
> to a syllabary, using closer to word-sized chunks to imitate the sounds of
> the donor language.
>

Okay, so there needs to be another explanation for the development of an
alphabetic system.  I think it's reasonable to have proto-runic come about
in a similar way to Hangeul: the logographic system became so baroque and
difficult to understand that it imposed difficulties on readability and
utility that another writing system was created.  Proto-runic, like
hangeul, would have been seen as "secondary" and lower class than the
logographic system, at least at first.  However, we can posit a slow
decline in logographic usage and an increasingly stylized proto-runic
script developing to replace it - the ceremonial script.  Eventually all
knowledge of the logographic script was lost, and ceremonial replaced it
entirely.

>
> >> Actually, quasi-related question: did the Angosey scripts have a
> (shared)
> >> alphabetic order?  If they did, that would have quite a large influence
> on
> >> the later realignment of ceremonial with contemporary runic.
> >
> >As I've written them, they did.  So, yes, why not?
>
> Well, the order you've written the characters in your scans can't be the
> Anga-internal alphabetical order, that would be too much of a coincidence:
> your consonants are clearly just in Roman order, aside from a few places
> where you've grouped variants together and a few additions on the end.
>  Your vowels are also in an order that has some commonalities with Roman,
> but it's different enough.  I could believe it that that Angosey-native
> order goes
>   a, ay, ey, e, i, ou, au, eu, u, ye, o, eo, ya, [some other permutation
> of the consonants], th, dh, p.
>

Yes - I should have said "I wrote them with shared order, although
obviously this is not how the Angosey would do it."  My current
organization is solely based on making my life easier - vowels go first,
since they don't fit neatly into the Roman alphabet, followed by consonants
in Roman order (with a few insertions where sensible, for example k, kh, q
in the "k" slot), with special non-Roman sounds appended at the end.  I'm
not sure what the order of the Angosey alphabet should be.  If proto-runic
was created a la Hangeul, then perhaps the alphabet should be organized
along phonetic lines?  Groupings by point of articulation, perhaps?


> >> Remarkably stable -- aw, what fun is that? :-p  There's a systemic bias
> in
> >> conworlds, I think, that not enough hāppens in history, that paging
> forward
> >> a thousand years leaves things looking far too much the same.  Even if
> the
> >> Roman civilisation existed both in the 5th century BC and the 5th AD,
> even
> >> if the Byzantines did in the 5th and 15th centures, quite a lot of
> internal
> >> and external changes happened between then.  (There's a TVTropes page on
> >> this, but I couldn't find it, and I don't mind; I wouldn't want to be
> the
> >> sort of person who knows the TVTropes name for everything...)
> >
> >My concept for the world is to have it seem extremely old, with many more
> >ruins than occupied locations, etc, but I can certainly compress the
> >history a bit.
>
> That would make me want to make the tradition of the Angosey knowledge
> discontinuous.  Even if Angosey kept being spoken, for one reason or
> another they ceased paying attention and eventually forgot about the
> predictive texts; it could then be a while before their rediscovery.
>

I like that, actually.

>
> Alex
>

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December 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
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November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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August 2002, Week 5
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August 2002, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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