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CONLANG  March 2014, Week 4

CONLANG March 2014, Week 4

Subject:

Re: "Bretainois" - two decisions

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 22:12:55 +0100

Content-Type:

Text/Plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

Text/Plain (127 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On Tuesday 25 March 2014 20:24:54 R A Brown wrote:

> For anyone interesting who is not quite certain what conlang
> I'm referring to below, see:
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Britannic/index.html

Which is the only Romance conlang I currently can muster
interest for ;)
 
> I have been meaning to write this for some time, but have
> been extremely busy over the past week.  But here it is at
> last.  Pondering further on question Alex asked, has helped
> me to decide on the question I first raised on the list on
> 15th of this month.  I deal with the two matters separately
> below.
> 
> PART 1.
> 
> On 17/03/2014 10:47, Alex Fink wrote:
> > Ray, I noticed in one of your provisional examples of
> > orthographic convention the entry _formage_ = "cheese".
> > But in Welsh we have _caws_ 'cheese' from Latin CÁSEUM.
> 
> It does.
> 
> > Does that not suggest that in the Vulgar Latin of Britain
> > it was CÁSEUM rather than FORMÁTICUM that was used for
> > 'cheese', and therefore that we'd expect to be retained
> > in British Romance?
> 
> Yes and no.
> 
> At the time of the Claudian invasion I have no doubt that
> the VL was _caseu_ everywhere.  Hence this form becomes a
> loan word in Brittonic, from which the modern Welsh _caws_
> /kaus/ and Cornish _keus_ /kø:z/ or /ke:z/, depending on the
> variety of Cornish you're using, and Breton _keuz_ /køz/
> are all derived.
> 
> Derivatives of this word remain until today in the Iberian
> peninsula (Span. _queso_; Port. _queijo_), which had been
> Romanized at an early date, and in conservative Sardinian
> _casu_.

Yes.  All these, of course, are *outliers*.  Britain would be
something of an outlier, too - but less so, being Romanized
later.
 
> But where Latin was spoken the longest, i.e. Italy, we find
> _formaggio_.  I guess slang and neologisms that catch on
> tend to develop in a language's homeland and then spread out
> from there.

Sure.  There are now many English slang words in circulation on
both sides of the Atlantic, even though they did not come into
use before the late 20th century.

Also, that an archaism crops up in Latin loanwords in British
Celtic does not at all mean that it prevailed in British Vulgar
Latin till the end!  After all, British VL would still take
part in the exchange of colloquialism in the VL continuum, while
British Celtic, being an entirely different language, did not.

>       We find the *formaticum word to the south in
> Sicily (_furmaggiu_) and northward throughout the
> Gallo-Roman and Raetian areas, even penetrating into Iberian
> peninsula in Catalan _formatge_.
> 
> It is possible that this word had already passed over the
> Channel from Gaul before Latin collapsed in the urban
> centers of east Britain in the 5th century.
> 
> I am assuming that in BART:
> - there was no 5th collapse of the Latin speaking urban
> centers of Britain;
> - continuum of Romance dialects from Sicily through to the
> lowlands of Scotland.
> 
> Therefore, I consider it likely in BART (but not in Ill
> Bethisad) that the *formaticum word will have crossed the
> Channel into the Romance of Britain.
> 
> Tho whether the "Bretainois" form should be _formage_ or
> _f(o)urmage_ is another matter   :)

Fair.
 
> ==========================================================
> 
> PART 2.
> 
> On 15/03/2014 09:11, R A Brown wrote:
> > ... I pointed out to Alex that having /ɨ/ was a pretty
> > original feature - the only other Romancelang with this
> > as a phoneme is Romanian.  But I added that I was having
> > 
> >  second thoughts about the plausibility of this.
> > 
> > Do I like this only because it's novel and makes my
> > conlang distinctive?
> 
> I am sure the truthful answer is "yes."  But I must not
> sacrifice plausibility to "it's something I like."
> 
> I now realize the shift [u] → [ʉ] → [ɨ] I envisaged for
> "Bretainois" is a Welsh bogoism!  It would have been OK in
> Brithenig, tho in fact it does not even occur there, but it
> ain't OK in the British Romance of BART.  The shift in
> Gallo-Romance and the Reato-Romance langs is [u] → [y], and
> in some of the Raeto-Romance langs [u] → [y] → [i].
>  
> For the same reasons that I accept _fourmage_ above, I must
> accept that the most plausible development for "Bretainois"
> is [u] → [y] → [i], and shall be amending the Vowels page
> accordingly.

Yes; this makes perfect sense.  Does that mean that the letter
_u_ spells /i/ in Bretainois, in a way similar to upsilon in
Modern Greek?

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1

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