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CONLANG  March 2014, Week 4

CONLANG March 2014, Week 4

Subject:

Re: The Ulrimate Conlang Experiment

From:

Matthew DeBlock <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 01:48:37 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (113 lines)

Answers in order

1.True, the hard part will definitely be be convincing people to participate in the experiment

But I think you are also not considering the fact that real-life based clans also create an environment where connections and relations outside of the game seriously affect your success inside the game.

perhaps it could be marketed as "the corruption free MMORPG". hehe.. 
argue that in this world only your in game relations can help you, having a real life friend(s) who is a level 99 wizard will not help you. you must somehow convince him in game, without being able to offer him out-of-game favours and benefits, to help you.. a much more difficult proposal, and even if you could, it would all be earned "in-game"

This would also kill the "secondary market" where people can sell their items and gold on ebay. how would you find the other person to complete the transaction ;)
Again, "corruption free". your real world wealth cannot buy you power in-game(this would be somewhat harder to prevent, but not impossible)

Your point is good and got me thinking about this.. I think the solution is to just take this and spin it into an marketing point. I think there are just as many people who hate the "corruption of the game by outside life" as there are those who enjoy leveraging outside real life"guanxi" and wealth.


2.As per not being able to use the conlang in real life.. I was looking for a way to get around that.. but I can't think of a solution that will not lead to people simply using natlangs in-game.

Maybe a phone app that helps break the barrier in real life.


3.True, monitoring language and chasing down "natlang cults" would not be a fun thing, it was more of a "just in case" scenario. My main goal here is designing a way to conduct the experiment as best as possible. this level of micro-management might not be needed. Perhaps is more of a "failsafe plan" in case somehow it become a large problem. eg one "language lord" spread his english based tongue throughout the realm faster than the conlangs are developing and risks destroying the experimental value.

4.Excellent point. I had not done any research into the vocal analysis. I was just operating under the supposition that I could identify some kind of base sound index.
While not well versed in this yet, I am adding it to my todo list.

Perhaps you can tell me if the following is possible, because this is how I envision it.

The index could be made smaller than the full range of human speech, just enough to identify a decent set of sounds.
I imagine if I just wanted to pick out all the "ah" sounds, it should be relatively easy.
What about "oh", "eh", etc.. 
maybe the index just has to be smaller, eliminating certain sounds form the index which are too similar to easily distinguish

Perhaps the rate of speech must be a bit slower.

Would this produce a large enough index for conlanging you think?

Barring that, I have played with voice-rec software several years ago. with some "training" they are actually relatively good. perhaps after installing each player must fill a data bank of sample reading and train up their user end voice-rec software.
would that do the trick you think?

Seeing as it is scrambled anyways, the software could even choose the most ideal sounds to be used in the index based on each users vocal pasterns. making the index of sounds as distinct as possible. If someone pronounce sound X and sound Y in a way that they are hard to distinguish, it just drops one of them form the index for that player.

I am imagining that somewhere in these approaches, or combination thereof, there is a way to realize this idea. Any thoughts?

5.Zombie scrambler comparison
Well that is an audio filter from the way you describe it
This would be scrambling of the indexed sounds, so it is a bit different

But as per them using a "Morse code" style way of communicating.. good point
but seeing as the input would have to be accepted, scrambled, sent, descrambled, there would be some lag,
and if you spoke your "pattern of blips" to quickly it would get processed as a single chunck, which is effectively first turned into a "virtual text version" on the server
So the pattern could get largely lost, and spaces between words as well as length of syllables would become uniform, so it would be very hard to communicate that way

 a simple extra addition to the lag time would also curtail this. if the lag was enough, a morse code style would take forever , but speech using a conlang could convey plenty more meaning in a fraction of the time

It could not be prevented entirely, but it would be easy to make it drastically less efficient than conlanging


6. The rest of the questions
These are just ideas for discouraging/preventing out of game co-ordination.
I realize it may seem like it "kills some of the fun".. this would be the "marketing challenge"
Market it is a "RPG uncorrupted y the real world"

I think there just may be a market for such a concept, if marketed correctly.. might not be the next "big hit".. but I think it might be able to get some kind of following

It would have to target the players who spend the most time playing, are somewhat of "lone wolf gamers" and choose not to spend real life money on secondary market purchases of in-game resource(or don't have the disposable income to do so), and feel people who do so are "cheating"

If this conlang list proves anything.. its that(in the words of XKCD) https://xkcd.com/1095/
Human sub-cultures are nested fractally, there's no bottom ;)
So perhaps there is hope :)

......................
On Tue, 25 Mar 2014 03:21:16 -0400, Matthew DeBlock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I saw a post about a conscript in a RPG and it got me thinking
>
>MMORPGs are just "interactive conworlds".. so I wonder... how about an RPG designed to promote in-game conlanging. With the right design one might be able to "force them to do it"

Keep in mind that people have choice, and given the large number of MMORPGs out there, anyone who would up playing this would probably have done so because they thought this conceit was interesting and worth trying out.  So I would imagine you don't have to twist players' arms, you don't have to play the Old Testament God and scatter people when their towers start looming too tall, nèarly as much as you're envisioning here.  If these artifices to preserving experiment conditions detract from fun too much, you won't have a player base for long!

>that way even if players congregated in real life, they would not understand each others version. This would prevent "out of game linguistic organization".

True, but this is not a good thing, as I see it.  If the underlying language(s) could be used in real life it would only help cement it / them as an important element of the fandom -- think of the Klingon / Na'vi / Dothraki fan communities.  It's an unfortunate corollary of your "every player has their own scrambling" technique that it prevents this.

>The main risk would be that "linguistic lords" arise. One person might be able to get everyone else to learn form them, and this one person could just speak plain English, for example, and everyone else would just learn their own phonetically adjusted version of English. But this should be easy enough to stop if the GMs(Game Masters) keep an eye out, they could even use some voice recognition software to identify people who might be inputting plain English, then review that person, and if they are, penalize them in some way, or just re-randomize their scrambler to set them back to zero from an in-game perspective.

Myself I wouldn't worry about this.  There will be at most one player out of probably hundreds or thousands in each dialect area whose game language ends up just being English, more likely zero.  Is it really worth the chilling effects of saying "we are monitoring everything you say and will exact punishments if we think you have too easy a time of it" on behalf of bringing probably a fraction of a percent of players in line with some ideal?    

>Writing would be more difficult, perhaps just disallow all text based communication.

No, you have it precisely backwards here.  Doing transforms of the sort you envision on text is quite possible; I could probably knock out an algorithm for that in a day (though there would be glitches to smooth out).  Doing it on arbitrary spoken language from arbitrary users?  The error rates of current speech recognition techniques are still relatively high (watch some Youtube videos with the automatic captioning turned on if you need convincing), and what successes they do manage are due in no small part to having good, rich, _huge_ models of English against which the recogniser can do hidden Markov model matching and whatnot: that is, it "expects" to hear grammatical, felicious English and biasses its perception accordingly.  If you didn't have a model for the underlying language, as necessarily you wouldn't in the scenario you want, I suspect the poor accuracy of any speech recognition algorithm combined with the fact that what you hear is superficially nonsense even if it ìs working would have players write the whole system off as unusable immediately.

Perhaps you were envisioning not having to do speech recognition for your audio transforms?  The problem with that is that the sort of transformations that are easy to do on an audio stream naively -- change the speed, the pitch, put it through frequency filters and stuff -- do not change linguistic segments into different segments, much less similar sequences of segments into differently-composed sequences.  They do non-linguistic things: they make it sound like you've inhaled helium or are on the other side of a wall or whatnot.  If you gave everyone an extreme enough random scramble of _this_ sort, maybe one player could hear everyone else as chipmunks, another as vague thunderous rumbles, etc., in a way that wasn't apperceptible as English: but then is everyone supposed to spèak back in the same manner?

One case study I know of you might want to look at is the zombie groans in Urban Dead:
  http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Zombie_Speech_Translators
Kevan gave zombies a way to speak among themselves but subject to severe, lossy, mangling so that players couldn't just use English among themselves straightforwardly (and, of course, so the result sounded like zombie groans).  But in short order people figured out a coding mechanism so that they could recode English into groans that would pass unchanged through the mangling and be decoded on the other end.  If your transformation functions are anything too close to simple substitutions, the analogue of this would be liable to happen, I think.  
Separately, see http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Zamgrh !

>Of course the biggest risk would be players organizing outside of the game and using chat software. But this could perhaps be mitigated by never allowing a player to see how their character looks, or scrambling the looks of characters like the language so they could not identify each other.

What do appearances of characters have to do with anything?  Even if I knew everyone's avatar that wouldn't help me identify them in meatspace.  

But, yeah, mild dark-pattern technical obstacles to using other chat apps at the same time probably wouldn't hurt.  You know, make the MMORPG window fullscreen and always in front, and make there be awkward in-world consequences of switching apps to an external IM client in the naive way, this sort of thing.

>Technologically adept users might read their internet traffic and be able to identify which server IP their universe is in, then friends would keep making characters until they are in the same universe. 

But maybe I want to play with my friends.  Why mustn't I?
>It would also be easy enough to auto-detect "clans", groups of people who are often playing together, by simply identified characters that spend alot of time geographically near each other. 

If there is going to be anything like enough stability for the experiment to succeed and languages to form, then the set of speakers of every variety are going to have to spend a lot of time geographically near each other.  So it seems there would be quite a large monitoring burden here.  

Alex

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August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
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May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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