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CONLANG  April 2014, Week 3

CONLANG April 2014, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Senejas > Nostratic

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 20:50:54 +0200

Content-Type:

Text/Plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

Text/Plain (84 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:29:56 +0200 BPJ wrote:

> I am pretty certain the  matter of Altaic will never be quite settled
> simply because what cognacy there may be is obviously overlayered many
> times over by borrowings and other contact-induced similarities.

Indeed, the prehistory of the "Altaic" languages is hard to
disentangle as people have been moving around pretty much in
northern Eurasia for thousands of years; under these
circumstances, borrowing and other contact phenomena are a
likelier explanation, though some things such as the similar
pronouns may point at a phyletic relationship, which cannot be
ruled out.  While Starostin, Dybo and Mudrak managed to compile
a massive "Etymological Dictionary of the Altaic Languages"
(which includes Korean and Japanese), this work is fraught with
the usual problems of long-range reconstruction attempts, such
as many-to-many matches between the relevant languages'
phonologies.

>       The big
> problem is Uralic which obviously shares a lot with both PIE and Altaic but
> cannot very well be (closely) genetically related to both.

It is IMHO not out of the question that IE, Uralic and Altaic
are parts of one large macrofamily, so Uralic may indeed be
related to both IE and Altaic.  My gut feeling is that the
relationship between IE and Uralic is closer than that of
either or both to Altaic; but this is very hard to reconstruct.

>       It pretty much
> hinges on how likely it is that PU borrowed the pronominal roots of PIE
> whole cloth.

While borrowings of pronouns occasionally happen, and of course
borrowings of open-class lexemes that later become pronouns, the
borrowing of an entire pronominal paradigm is highly unlikely
(though not impossible).

>       I generally think that convergence and contact phenomena get
> too short thrift in comparative philology, while the obsession with common
> descent reeks of essentialism.

Yes.  This is especially true of most long-range relationship
proposals.

>       Both are interesting, important and have
> something important to say about how languages, or rather the human
> language faculty (which certainly is both more complicated, more nebulous
> and less disjoint from general cognitive faculties than Chomsky ever
> imagined!), develop and work. However I think that much work needs to be
> done on more recent examples of language contact and convergence to learn
> how they work before tackling cases more distant in time and space like
> Altaic or Nostratic.

Very much so!  One problem of course is that many of the
languages that were borrowed from are long extinct and low lost.
For instance, most IE languages are full of words without good
PIE etymologies, and these may in part be loanwords from pre-IE
languages of the relevant areas.

>       However who will listen to me? My catered was cut
> short by a conspiracy of unfortunate circumstances over twenty years ago!
> 
> However for a historical conlang and/or fantasy setting I guess it's OK to
> take things like Altaic or even Nostratic at face value. Our understanding
> of forms of linguistic relatedness other than divergent descent is far too
> underdeveloped to be meaningfully integrated into such a project anyway.

Fair.  With my own Old Albic (and its Hesperic cousins), I am
working with hypotheses of my own design about prehistoric
languages of Europe, including an attempt at an internal
reconstruction of Pre-PIE.  All these ideas are certainly too
vastly speculative from the viewpoint of real historical
linguistics, but Old Albic is not meant as a scholarly
*reconstruction* of a lost language, rather a fanciful artistic
*re-creation* of one.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"BÍsel asa …am, a …am atha cvanthal a cvanth atha …amal." - SiM 1:1

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