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CONLANG  May 2014, Week 5

CONLANG May 2014, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Letter to "?"

From:

BPJ <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 29 May 2014 20:22:31 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (161 lines)

2014-05-29 11:17, Rusiok skrev:


On 28/05/2014 19:20, Kev-Bill Walker wrote:

> > Really to give a sensible answer for a the additional letter, IMO we
> > need to know how the other 26 are being used.

> They are:

Your message came thru to me with formatting badly damaged. The 
list of
litter values looks like this, where I suspect a lot of spaces 
have been
inserted:

     ' a b c d e k w g a/h i/j ɟ k l ̥ /l m ̥ /m n ̥ /n o p o/ ʕ w r ̥ 
/r s t u/w ɡ w k w ʔ k ʔ c ʔ t ʔ e/ ʔ j

Since I have an sight condition I tried to clean it up so that I could
read it fluently. I tried to line up the letters/values in a 
table, as I
thought it should be. Please correct if I made any mistakes!

   Letter   Value(s)
   -------- ----------
   a        a
   b        b
   c        c
   d        d
   e        e
   f        kw
   g        g
   h        a/h
   i        i/j
   j        ɟ
   k        k
   l        l ̥/l
   m        m ̥/m
   n        n ̥/n
   o        o
   p        p
   q        o/ʕ w
   r        r ̥/r
   s        s
   t        t
   u        u/w
   v        ɡw
   w        kwʔ
   x        kʔ cʔ tʔ
   y        e/ʔ
   z        j

Some questions/suggestions:

*   Do the slashes mean that these letters are meant to be 
bivalent, or
     that you are looking for ways to differentiate those values?

     *   Personally I like the idea of polyvalent letters, if they 
work
         in the language system.

     *   Otherwise I'd suggest that you use diacritics -- in fact most
         languages using the Latin alphabet use at least some 
diacritics,
         and the same goes for transliterations from other scripts --
         since there are plenty of Latin letters with diacritics in
         Unicode.

         *   In particular the dot above or below, the mother of all
             diacritics, can be put to service for almost anything!
             Nearly the entire Latin alphabet exists with dot 
above, and
             a lot of letters exist with dot below, freeing one of the
             need for pesky combining diacritics.[^1]

         *   Unfortunately *u* doesn't come with dot above, but I'd
             suggest that you indicate vowel vs. 
approximant/glottal stop
             with one diacritic, voiced vs. voiceless with another and
             glottalization (if I've interpreted your value list 
right)
             with a third:

             *   Diaeresis above vowels to distinguish them from
                 glides/glottal stop. Note that there is a *h* with
                 diaeresis in Unicode!

             *   Dot below to distinguish voiceless *ḷ, ṃ, ṇ, ṛ* from
                 voiced *l, m, n, r*.

             *   Dot above to indicate glottalization. 
Unfortunately *k*
                 doesn't come with dot above, but you could use 
*x* for
                 /kʔ/ or assign *c, ċ* to /k/, /kʔ/ and *ẓ, ż* to /c/,
                 /cʔ/. This would help to add some 'depth', as if 
it were
                 an historical orthography where diacritics were
                 introduced to mark distinctions which originally were
                 neglected.

*   Is _x_ really supposed to have three different values?

     *   You could distinguish the three as _x ẋ ẍ_.

     *   Alternatively what about simply using _x_ for /ʔ/
         and digraphs like _k' c' t'_ for glottalization, although
         I get the impression you don't like digraphs. :-)

     *   Actually I wonder why no conlang AFAIK yet has used _x_ 
for /ʔ/
         and _y_ for /ʕ/ seeing how these letters are very similar 
to the
         Hebrew letters for these sounds!

*   Do you have any story, like historical sound changes to explain
     unorthodox letter values like for _f h q v w x y z_?

On 29/05/2014 01:04:43, Jeffrey Brown wrote:

> > What Tony proposed is what Hawaiian does. The glottal stop is
> > written using the okina (looks like a left curly single quote), and
> > for capitalization, the following letter is capitalized. As in:
> > ʻokina ʻOkina.

It's the same with traditional transliterations of Semitic languages:
_ʼAlif_ (U+02BC) and _ʻAyn_ (U+02BB), and note that this is based on
the usage of smooth and rough breathings for Ancient Greek: ἁ is 
Latinized
_ha_ and Ἁ is Latinized _Ha_ since 2000+ years!


> How they type the ʻokina? What ASCII? Here's how it will look ( n ot
> ʻ, but ASCII-7 0x60):

Officially it's
  ʻ  02BB        MODIFIER LETTER TURNED COMMA
but I guess the ordinary ASCII apostrophe has been used for it on 
occasion.
:-)  The Good Thing with modifier letters is exactly that they 
count as
letters, e.g. for `\p{L}` in regular expressions in languages 
which support
it, and for constructs matching word boundaries in Unicode aware regex
engines.

[^1]: Before everybody starts telling me how good combining diacritics
     actually are: I agree, but they don't play nice with all 
software,
     in particular Vim which I'm practically dependent on. If I 
want to
     display (stacked) diacritics properly I must use XeLaTeX, 
which is
     good for polished publishing, but not for day-to-day scribbling.
     OTOH Vim is great when it comes to entering arbitrary Unicode
     letters -- Yay keymaps! (:h mbyte-keymap).

/bpj

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