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CONLANG  June 2014, Week 1

CONLANG June 2014, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Definition of a-priori/a-posteriori

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 7 Jun 2014 20:10:30 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (111 lines)

On 07/06/2014 19:06, Herman Miller wrote:
> On 6/7/2014 11:20 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>> Hallo conlangers!
[snip]
>>
>> While this does not explicitly mentions first
>> principles, it is quite clear that this definition of
>> _a priori_ applies only to constructed languages
>> designed without regard of natural languages.  This
>> applies well to "philosophical" languages as well as
>> to Solresol and similar schemes, but certainly not to
>> such languages as Balaybalan or Quenya, which *do* take
>>  account of natural languages.
>
> I think a distinction does need to be made between
> borrowing features from specific natural languages on
> the one hand (like Esperanto) and making a language that
> tries to conform to realistic models of natural language
> in general (like Quenya). If a new term is needed for
> this kind of language, then a new term is needed.

Artlang?   :)

> Lumping Quenya into "a posteriori" just because it
> doesn't meet the criteria for being "a priori" is
> misguided.

Yes - I have written before that lumping Quenya and
Esperanto together as _a posteriori_ is IMO just as
misguided as lumping Quenya and Babm together as _a priori_.
  Indeed, it is my contention that while the _a priori_ ~ _a
posteriori_ distinction is useful one for auxlangs, it
doesn't make sense for artlangs which are artistic creations.

[snip]
>
> More to the point, Quenya and Sindarin are languages
> spoken by non-human people of a distant past. The idea
> that they could borrow features from languages that
> didn't even exist yet is not internally consistent with
> that history. So it seems clear that Tolkien borrowed
> features from natural languages for the purpose of
> realism, not because he wanted to make any sort of
> connection with those specific languages.

Yes, indeed. But that doesn't conform to an important part
of Couturat and Leau's definition of _a priori_, i.e. that
the authors takes *no account* of natural languages.
Tolkien certainly did.

The confusion arises IMO in that we are taking categories
that were designed and have been used for more than a
century for categorizing auxlangs and trying to apply them
to a very different sort of conlang.  Does any artlanger
actually fashion her/his artlang without taking natural
languages into account?

[snip]
>
> I think what we've got is two points on a continuum, but
> divided differently into two parts depending on one's
> point of view. For artlangers, the line is drawn closer
> to the "a posteriori" end. The confusion results mainly
> from not agreeing on where the line should be drawn.

Or whether the line is applicable or meaningful for artlangs.

> So what we need is a third category, or a whole new
> scheme of classification.

What about Arika Okrent's four-fold division?
http://inthelandofinventedlanguages.com/index.php?page=languages&subpage=samples

Tho obviously one might wish to give a more meaningful name
to 'Other'.

But I shall stick with the Gnoli triangle, unless I can be
convincingly persuaded otherwise.

>> This is similar to the different usage of the term
>> _naturalistic_ among auxlangers and artlangers.
>> Again, the definition used by auxlangers is the older
>> one, and misunderstandings may ensue.
>
> I think in this case, it's artlangers using the word in
> its non-technical English meaning, not realizing that
> the word has a technical meaning that differs.

Yikes - I don't want to be drawn into this one as well   :(

> [snip]
>> I understand that notion, and have felt for a long
>> time that Quenya is too close to certain European
>> languages at least "in spirit" to really count as a
>> priori!  Yet, it is an example of what is often called
>> "a priori" among artlangers.
>
> I think the problem is the idea that everything fits
> into one of these two categories.

AMEN!

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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