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CONLANG  June 2014, Week 1

CONLANG June 2014, Week 1

Subject:

Definition of a-priori/a-posteriori (was: Bālaybalan)

From:

BPJ <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Thu, 5 Jun 2014 15:21:25 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (112 lines)

IIUC the terms _a-priori_ and _a-posteriori_ as originally coined to
describe auxlangs referred exclusively to whether their vocabulary was
*derived by design, prominently, and consistently* from one or more
natlangs or not, and I think that it's best to keep this as the strict
sense of the terms, as I believe everyone can agree on this stricter sense
as applied to vocabulary. I do however think that the *derived by design,
prominently and consistently* criteria are important whether acknowledged
by the lang author or not. Instances of word play or the occasionally
cherry-picked lexeme shouldn't suffice to make a conlang a-posteriori, and
the occasional cutting of lexemes from whole cloth shouldn't make it
a-priori; otherwise e.g. Esperanto would be both at the same time,
rendering the terms meaningless. I also think that obviousness does *not*
constitute a criterion: Lojban and Volapük do have a-posteriori
vocabularies even though that may not be immediately discernible.

I think those criteria become even more important when extending the terms
to other subsystems of a language. While the set of possible naturalistic
vocabularies is at least large enough to be treated as infinite that is
with abruptly decreasing probability true of the sets of possible
naturalistic phonologies, grammatical categories or grammatical subsystems
of any given category, especially if you define e.g. a phonology in terms
of the (kind(s) of) distinctions it makes. A phonology would need to be
pretty much cloned to be a-posteriori, although it may (especially
randomly) omit or ad a phoneme here or there. OTOH a shotgun phonology is
IMNSHO not a-priori in any meaningful sense.

I think it's important in this context to remember some other terms to
describe a conlang:

*  _flavored_
*  _styled_
*  _inspired_
*  _-philiac_
*  _-phobic_

The relationships of Quenya and Sindarin to all or some particular European
languages are much better described in these terms than as "a-posteriori"!

However I do think that a conlang can stand in an a-posteriori relationship
to another conlang *if that other conlang was authored by someone else*.
When I made a Proto-Elvish-Slavic or Proto-Elvish-Norse bogolang they very
much were a-posteriori to Tolkien's oeuvre!
The original relationship between my own conlangs Sohlob and Cidilib is
more aptly described as _forking_,
borrowing a term from software development. In the end they became sister
languages in the same fictional language family rather than Cidilib
replacing (Classical) Sohlob, in the process merging their vocabularies.
Den 5 jun 2014 11:38 skrev "Jeff Daniel Rollin-Jones" <[log in to unmask]
>:

As someone on this list said recently, possibly on another topic, I nth the
assertion.

Sent from my iPhone

On 5 Jun 2014, at 03:13, Js Bangs <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>>
>> Quenya, however, blurs the line in an interesting way, in that it is
>> derived by simulated historical processes from Primitive Noldorin.
>> Taxonomies are always most interesting where they break down.
> Eh, but Primitive Noldorin itself is an a priori conlang. Deriving a new
> conlang from another a priori conlang does not make the derived conlang a
> posteriori --- this is just regular historical conlanging, of a type that
> is quite common. See Mark Rosenfelder's entire oeuvre is of this sort.
>
> Aside from that, I quite agree with David Peterson's assertion about the
> meaning of "a posteriori". To call Quenya and Esperanto a posteriori is to
> render the term meaningless.
>
>
>
>
>> Pete Bleackley
>> The Fantastical Devices of Pete The Mad Scientist -
>> http://fantasticaldevices.blogspot.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: David Peterson <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Wed, 04 Jun 2014 20:15
>> Subject: Re: Bālaybalan
>>
>>> On Jun 4, 2014, at 11:21 AM, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> But this is like arguing that Quenya or Sindarin are
>>> a_priori, which IMHO is nonsense.  If a language is a_priori
>>> then it is *built from scratch from _first principles_,
>>> without any reference to any natural languages*.   Clearly
>>> Quenya and Sindarin are not so built.
>>>
>>> The grammar of both languages are original (though with
>>> aspects that recall several natlangs that I will not detail
>>> here) and their vocabularies are entirely original.  But we
>>> know that Tolkien fashioned these languages out many years
>>> of exposure to natlangs.
>>
>>
>> David Peterson
>> LCS Member Since 2007
>> [log in to unmask]
>> www.conlang.org
>
>
>
> --
> JS Bangs
> [log in to unmask]
> http://jsbangs.wordpress.com
>
> "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle" -Ian Maclaren

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