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CONLANG  June 2014, Week 2

CONLANG June 2014, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Definition of a-priori/a-posteriori

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 9 Jun 2014 20:22:35 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (92 lines)

On 09/06/2014 19:26, Chuck Haberl wrote:
> The discussion has strayed from the original topic of
> Bāleybalan,

That's why the subject line got changed    :)

also the discussion of Bāleybalan and this thread is causing
me to rewrite parts of my Glossopoeia page, which keeps me
away from Britainese!

> but in terms of divining the original intent of its
> creator, here is a snippet from the preface of Loğa
> va-Qavāʾed-e Bālaybalan (1580):
>
> "The builders of languages are people. They do this
> through the power given to them by God. In the Noble
> Koran, it says that God taught people the names (isimler)
> of all things; therefore, we'll be the ones to invent the
> words (kelimeler) for them. The most perfect language is
> Arabic. After that comes Syriac. Turkish was originally
> one of the languages spoken in Asia; but there is (also)
> a great difference between Arabic and Persian. As for
> this language, either its words were created on my part,
> with divine inspiration, and left as they were, or they
> were taken from other languages and changed (from their
> original forms)."

Thanks, Chuck - fascinating.  This has echos of European
searches for the perfect language that was used before Babel
=, the 'language of Adam.'  Umberto Eco discusses these in
his "The Search for the Perfect Language".  I notice there
is a chapter called 'The Kabbalistic Pansemioticism' - this
might be relevant to the above.

> This brings me to a conundrum. There is undeniably an a
> posteriori component to the language ("öbür dillerden
> alındı ve değiştirildi").

Yes.

> On the other hand, most of the vocabulary has been
> generated according to cabbalistic principles (e.g. "the
> radical -b- indicates that the action is shared, the
> radical -f- indicates asking" etc. in the example I
> previously gave), which are clearly not a posterior
> according to any standard (rational or otherwise).

But cabbalism starts with _language_ - the Hebrew of the
Torah or, in Islam, the Arabic of the Koran - and seeks to
descry beneath the letters the shape of the eternal
Torah/Koran created by God before all worlds and consigned
to his angels.  This is not a_priori, methinks  ;)

  Is it anachronistic to categorize this
> language according to its fidelity to *Cartesian*
> principles rather than its own?

IMO it should be judged according to its own principles.

> In short (bringing us back to the topic of the present
> thread), can we have "mystical a priori" languages in
> addition to "rational a priori" ones?

I think my own opinion will be obvious.  In the strict
meaning of a_priori, probably no language can be.  But the
meanings given by Couturat & Leau, which cover the _whole_
language, are useful in categorizing the two very different
approaches taken by authors of _auxlangs_.

Bāleybalan is not an auxlang; your conundrum is, in my
opinion, another example of the problem of applying these
categories to other types of conlang.

More interesting to my mind is "Is this an artlang?"  It
doesn't seem to be an engelang! IMO "either its words were
created on my part with divine inspiration, and left as they
were, or they were taken from other languages and changed
(from their original forms)" suggests an artlang - a
mystical artlang.

The other interesting thing, from my point of view, is where
does it fit in the Gnoli triangle   :)

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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