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CONLANG  June 2014, Week 2

CONLANG June 2014, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Inequities of IPA

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 9 Jun 2014 10:38:17 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (73 lines)

On 9 Jun 2014 10:18, "J. 'Mach' Wust" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 19:16:52 +0100, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >considering IPA for the purpose of phonetic
> >representations (which I think is the only purpose it should be used
> >for), one wouldn't expect it to have a way to represent the
> >fortis--lenis distinction, since that is not a phonetic distinction.
>
> I know there are analysis where the fortis–lenis distinction is
> considered to be purely phonemic. There are phonetic analysis,
> though, where the fortis–lenis distinction is very much considered to
> be a phonetic distinction. The examples I know best are German
> dialect atlases that often distinguish several phonetic degrees of
> fortis and lenis pronunciations.

What is phonetic fortisness and lenisness?

> >> On Sat, 7 Jun 2014 19:38:48 +0100, And Rosta wrote:
> >>
> >>> Actually the mere use of IPA is not sufficient to avoid ambiguity,
> >>> since one often finds, say, [r] used in contexts where it's unclear
> >>> whether it represents a trill or some default rhotic that the writer
> >>> thinks it inappropriate to faff about supplying the proper symbol
> >>> for.
> >>
> >> What annoys me on Wikipedia is the opposite thing: Transcriptions of
> >> German pronunciations often default to distinguishing the allophones
> >> of /r/ according to the Prussian pronunciation (uvular approximants
> >> and vocalizations with unclear influence on the preceding vowel's
> >> length). To me, this feels as inadequate as if English pronunciations
> >> would default to Received Pronunciation. Instead, transcriptions of
> >> English pronunciations often default to [r] and leave it up to each
> >> user what allophones they use. I think that is much more adequate for
> >> an international encyclopedia.
> >
> >I don't understand this. For pronunciations of English words you'd
> >expect a phonological representation, such as are given in
> >dictionaries, either for some reference dialect or a diaphonematic
> >system. Indeed, Wikipedia normally does give phonemic
> >representations for English words; therefore one would not expect
> >IPA symbols to be used with IPA values, and that is right. If a
> >pronunciation is presented as phonetic, as might be more suitable
> >for info on how something is pronounced in an unfamiliar language,
> >you'd expect that is actually an instruction on a licit way to
> >pronounce it, in which case using symbols with nonstandard values
> >leads to misinstruction.
>
> I was talking about the German wikipedia when compared to the English
> wikipedia. Of course, it makes sense that English pronunciations on
> the English wikipedia should be transcribed phonemically. But this
> makes equally sense for German pronunciations on the German
> wikipedia.
>
> On top of that, while the Prussian pronunciation of the allophones of
> /r/ is often very precisely transcribed, other allophonic variations
> are usually not indicated at all, most notably, the aspiration of
> plosives, even though it is another very characteristic trait of the
> Prussian pronunciation. There are many transcriptions such as [kaːɐ̯l
> ˈhaɪnʀɪç ˈmaːɐ̯ks], [ˈkʀaftvɛɐk], or [ˈkʏnstlɐ.ʁoˌmaːn] (examples
> from the English wikipedia) that are, so to say, überphonetic on the
> /r/, but plainly phonemic on the plosives. To me, this is just
> inconsistent.

I largely agree, but in this particular case a justification might be that
in a broad phonetic transcription [k] can reasonably generalize over
varieties of [k] differing in place, phonation, release, and so forth, for
a voiceless affricated postvelar plosive can be broadly counted as a [k],
whereas there is no phone that can be defined with sufficient latitude to
encompass all realizations of /r/; a brief low vowel or a retroflex
approximant cannot be counted as an alveolar trill, for example.

--And.

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