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CONLANG  June 2014, Week 2

CONLANG June 2014, Week 2

Subject:

a-priori/a-posteriori - further thoughts

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Tue, 10 Jun 2014 14:36:06 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (108 lines)

On 09/06/2014 04:27, Galen Buttitta wrote:
> I always understood "a priori" and "a posteriori" in
> conlanging to refer to whether or not the lang was
> descended from a proto-lang:

... and why not?  'prior' ~ 'post/posterior' - Hasn't Galen
made a reasonable assumption just from the terms themselves?

The main reason IMO for the differences of opinion over what
is and what is not a_priori and a_posteriori is that they
are such poorly chosen terms?

The difference of opinion has centered around their
applicability to _artlangs_.  If we were to extend this
terminology to art in general, then we would, I think, say
that a Jackson Pollock painting is "a priori" but a
Constable landscape is "a posteriori."

Then how would we describe Picasso's Guernica?

Why aren't paintings described as "a priori" or "a
posteriori"?  Probably because the art-wold has got more sense.
=======================================================

On 08/06/2014 21:26, David Peterson wrote:
[snip]
>
> Labeling Quenya as anything but a priori sounds not only
>  odd, but insulting to me (as if Tolkien couldn’t do any
>  better but jumbling up a mishmash of existing natlang
> features to produce a conlang)

In a manner of speaking, he did, of course.  But it wasn't a
jumbled mishmash; Tolkien was far too good a craftsman than
that!  The mix is skilfully and subtly blended to which
Tolkien added a good dose of original creativity to produce
Quenya and its associated languages.

[snip]

> between conlanging and linguistics, it would seem rather
>  prescriptive to insist that the modern definitions of
> the terms should be abandoned in favor of the original
> definitions—

I'd like to see them dropt _entirely_ because they're
confusing.  There are those like Galen who try to make sense
of the terms and misunderstand them.  There are others, like
me, who come from a tradition where they have been used to
denote certain groups of auxlangs and who, consequently, are
confused by their use to describe certain artlangs (or
engelangs) in a somewhat different way.

[snip]

>
> Here’s the four types of conlang I refer to:
>
> A priori vocabulary, a priori grammar: Teonaht
>
> A posteriori vocabulary, a posteriori grammar: Brithenig
>
> A posteriori vocabulary, a priori grammar: Toki Pona
> (creoles are like this, too, in a sense)
>
> A priori vocabulary, a posteriori grammar: English relex

Wouldn't something like 'original' and 'derived' be more
meaningful and less confusing?  Thus:

          VOCABULARY  GRAMMAR
TEONAHT    original   original
BRITHENIG  derived    derived
TOKI PONA  derived    original
ENG. RELEX original   derived

One can argue how useful that is - but at least it seems to
me a lot less confusing than the fairly meaningless "a
priori" and "a posteriori" thing.

Maybe it is helpful to have artlangs described thus.  But
with engelangs I feel such table would not (always) be
helpful.  For example, Tom Breton's AllNoun would be
labeled: Vocabulary: derived; grammar: original.  But that's
only because Tom wasn't interested in the vocabulary, only
in the experiment of building a language with just one part
of speech, i.e. noun.  He used English in his examples
simply for convenience; *it's not intrinsic to the language*.

I guess, at least for engelangs, we ought to have another
label besides 'original' and 'derived'; at the moment I
can't think of anything better than 'not relevant.'
Thus:
           VOCABULARY    GRAMMAR
AllNoun   not-relevant  original


Just some suggestions and thoughts - nothing prescriptive  :)

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]

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