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CONLANG  June 2014, Week 2

CONLANG June 2014, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Inequities of IPA

From:

"J. 'Mach' Wust" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 10 Jun 2014 12:05:48 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (98 lines)

On Mon, 9 Jun 2014 10:38:17 +0100, And Rosta wrote:

>On 9 Jun 2014 10:18, "J. 'Mach' Wust" wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 19:16:52 +0100, And Rosta wrote:
>> >considering IPA for the purpose of phonetic
>> >representations (which I think is the only purpose it should be used
>> >for), one wouldn't expect it to have a way to represent the
>> >fortis--lenis distinction, since that is not a phonetic distinction.
>>
>> I know there are analysis where the fortis–lenis distinction is
>> considered to be purely phonemic. There are phonetic analysis,
>> though, where the fortis–lenis distinction is very much considered to
>> be a phonetic distinction. The examples I know best are German
>> dialect atlases that often distinguish several phonetic degrees of
>> fortis and lenis pronunciations.
>
>What is phonetic fortisness and lenisness?

If I am not mistaken, there is not much theoretical agreement what
the fortis–lenis distinction is about. It is easier to say what it is
not about: It is not about voice onset time (voice or aspiration).
Traditionally, it is being described as articulatory force. It is not
quite clear how this force would translate into more recent
linguistic terminology. This is probably the reason why the terms are
often absent, though my impression is that this is much more the case
in English linguistics than in German linguistics.

In practical terms, though, the distinction is well established to
the point that phonetic researchers easily distinguish five shades of
fortis and lenis (fortis, weak fortis, fortis-lenis, hard lenis,
lenis), or even more.


>> >> On Sat, 7 Jun 2014 19:38:48 +0100, And Rosta wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Actually the mere use of IPA is not sufficient to avoid ambiguity,
>> >>> since one often finds, say, [r] used in contexts where it's unclear
>> >>> whether it represents a trill or some default rhotic that the writer
>> >>> thinks it inappropriate to faff about supplying the proper symbol
>> >>> for.
>> >>
>> >> What annoys me on Wikipedia is the opposite thing: Transcriptions of
>> >> German pronunciations often default to distinguishing the allophones
>> >> of /r/ according to the Prussian pronunciation (uvular approximants
>> >> and vocalizations with unclear influence on the preceding vowel's
>> >> length). To me, this feels as inadequate as if English pronunciations
>> >> would default to Received Pronunciation. Instead, transcriptions of
>> >> English pronunciations often default to [r] and leave it up to each
>> >> user what allophones they use. I think that is much more adequate for
>> >> an international encyclopedia.
>> >
>> >I don't understand this. For pronunciations of English words you'd
>> >expect a phonological representation, such as are given in
>> >dictionaries, either for some reference dialect or a diaphonematic
>> >system. Indeed, Wikipedia normally does give phonemic
>> >representations for English words; therefore one would not expect
>> >IPA symbols to be used with IPA values, and that is right. If a
>> >pronunciation is presented as phonetic, as might be more suitable
>> >for info on how something is pronounced in an unfamiliar language,
>> >you'd expect that is actually an instruction on a licit way to
>> >pronounce it, in which case using symbols with nonstandard values
>> >leads to misinstruction.
>>
>> I was talking about the German wikipedia when compared to the English
>> wikipedia. Of course, it makes sense that English pronunciations on
>> the English wikipedia should be transcribed phonemically. But this
>> makes equally sense for German pronunciations on the German
>> wikipedia.
>>
>> On top of that, while the Prussian pronunciation of the allophones of
>> /r/ is often very precisely transcribed, other allophonic variations
>> are usually not indicated at all, most notably, the aspiration of
>> plosives, even though it is another very characteristic trait of the
>> Prussian pronunciation. There are many transcriptions such as [kaːɐ̯l
>> ˈhaɪnʀɪç ˈmaːɐ̯ks], [ˈkʀaftvɛɐk], or [ˈkʏnstlɐ.ʁoˌmaːn] (examples
>> from the English wikipedia) that are, so to say, überphonetic on the
>> /r/, but plainly phonemic on the plosives. To me, this is just
>> inconsistent.
>
>I largely agree, but in this particular case a justification might be that
>in a broad phonetic transcription [k] can reasonably generalize over
>varieties of [k] differing in place, phonation, release, and so forth, for
>a voiceless affricated postvelar plosive can be broadly counted as a [k],
>whereas there is no phone that can be defined with sufficient latitude to
>encompass all realizations of /r/; a brief low vowel or a retroflex
>approximant cannot be counted as an alveolar trill, for example.

The traditional solution that is used in other encyclopediae is using
plain [r]. This works equally well for German as it does for English.
It is in accordance with what might be called Occam's IPA razor: If
there are several potential transcriptions, use the easiest one (a
regular letter of the Latin alphabet, if available).

-- 
grüess
mach

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