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CONLANG  June 2014, Week 2

CONLANG June 2014, Week 2

Subject:

Re: a-priori/a-posteriori - further thoughts

From:

Ingus Macats <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 10 Jun 2014 19:04:45 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

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text/plain (233 lines)

Hi there!

I just wanted to say that reading this discussion has been very insightful
for me.
I think everything is going to be fine, as long as we're all aware of the
fact that these terms have more than one meanings in different, albeit
closely related, fields, especially those of us who then decide to apply
them to their own work. Since artlangs and auxlangs are clearly separate
entities, I don't see why people should get confused in their own
respective fields. (Granted, people might and will still get confused in
situations where, say, an artlanger is talking about an auxlang, but I
don't see it as in any way different than, say, a phycisist talking about
chemistry.)

On a somewhat unrelated (but mentioned) note, is there any reason to not
use a term like "diacronic conlang" when speaking about one that is "applying
diachronic changes to a starting language"?

Ingus


2014-06-10 18:20 GMT+02:00 Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>:

> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Tuesday 10 June 2014 14:36:06 R A Brown wrote:
>
> > On 09/06/2014 04:27, Galen Buttitta wrote:
> > > I always understood "a priori" and "a posteriori" in
> > > conlanging to refer to whether or not the lang was
> >
> > > descended from a proto-lang:
> > ... and why not?  'prior' ~ 'post/posterior' - Hasn't Galen
> > made a reasonable assumption just from the terms themselves?
> >
> > The main reason IMO for the differences of opinion over what
> > is and what is not a_priori and a_posteriori is that they
> > are such poorly chosen terms?
>
> No, they aren't.
>
> > The difference of opinion has centered around their
> > applicability to _artlangs_.  If we were to extend this
> > terminology to art in general, then we would, I think, say
> > that a Jackson Pollock painting is "a priori" but a
> > Constable landscape is "a posteriori."
> >
> > Then how would we describe Picasso's Guernica?
> >
> > Why aren't paintings described as "a priori" or "a
> > posteriori"?  Probably because the art-wold has got more sense.
>
> That a term is not applicable to a partiucular field of art
> doesn't mean that it is not applicable to any other field of
> art, either.  The same way one could argue that the terms
> "figurative" and "abstract" are useless in visual art because
> they do not apply well to music!
>
> Conlanging as well as experience with similar problems in
> other fields of discourse taught me that words just mean
> what people use them for, and decreeing away a common but
> "wrong" usage doesn't work well.  In artlang circles, a
> conlang that is made of whole cloth rather than derived
> from one or more natlangs (or other conlangs), neither
> "Esperanto-wise" nor by the diachronic method, is called
> an "a priori conlang", even if this usage is not the same
> as that introduced by Couturat and Leau into interlinguistics.
>
> There are numerous examples of words meaning two different
> things in two different fields of discourse, even closely
> related ones.  Here are some examples:
>
> A. Protolanguage:
> 1. (in historical linguistics) - the (attested or, more often,
>     reconstructed) latest common ancestor of a language family.
>    As any demonstrable language relationship is much shallower
>    than the time when languages as we know them first emerged,
>    such a protolanguage is emphatically *not* a protolanguage
>    in the language origins studies sense, but a full-fledged
>    language.
> 2. (in language origins studies) - a hypothetical communication
>    system in prehistoric hominins that is intermediate between
>    a non-human animal communication system and a human language,
>    having some properties of language and lacking others.
>
> B. Genetic relationship:
> 1. (in biology) - relationship by genes.
> 2. (in historical linguistics) - relationship by descent from
>    a common ancestor language.  This has emphatically *nothing*
>    to do with genes.
>
> C. Progressive rock:
> 1. (in classic rock) - a subgenre of classic rock that emerged
>    in the late 1960s when rock musicians strove to break out of
>    the moulds of the blues and the popular song and sought to
>    create more sophisticated, "serious" music, combining this
>    approach with progressive social philosophy.  Exemplified by
>    bands like Pink Floyd, Yes, King Crimson and Soft Machine.
> 2. (in alternative rock) - a subgenre of alternative rock that
>    emerged in the early 1990s when rock musicians applied
>    patterns of "progressively" densifying repetitive structures
>    that had previously been used in electronic music to rock
>    music.  Exemplified by bands like Tool or Isis.
>
> D. Naturalistic language:
> 1. (in interlinguistics) - an IAL closely modelled on a few
>    closely related natural languages, usually (but not always)
>    Romance languages.  Examples: Occidental, IALA Interlingua.
> 2. (in artlanging) - an artlang that strives to emulate a
>    fictional or hypothetical natural language.  Examples:
>    Quenya, Brithenig.
>
> A. and B. are the cause of endless misconceptions on language
> evolution in the popular press; C. earned me the reputation of
> being a pedant in fora where popular music was discussed as I
> disputed the validity of the usage in alternative rock; D. has
> been discussed here last year or so.
>
> We are dealing with a similar case as D. with "a priori/
> a posteriori", seems to me.
>
> > =======================================================
> >
> > On 08/06/2014 21:26, David Peterson wrote:
> > [snip]
> >
> > > Labeling Quenya as anything but a priori sounds not only
> > >
> > >  odd, but insulting to me (as if Tolkien couldn’t do any
> > >  better but jumbling up a mishmash of existing natlang
> > >
> > > features to produce a conlang)
> >
> > In a manner of speaking, he did, of course.  But it wasn't a
> > jumbled mishmash; Tolkien was far too good a craftsman than
> > that!  The mix is skilfully and subtly blended to which
> > Tolkien added a good dose of original creativity to produce
> > Quenya and its associated languages.
>
> Yes.  Tolkien's languages are masterful and subtle blends of
> features from various (mostly European) languages he was
> familiar which and which he admired (or, in the case of Black
> Speech, abhorred).
>
> > [snip]
> >
> > > between conlanging and linguistics, it would seem rather
> > >
> > >  prescriptive to insist that the modern definitions of
> > >
> > > the terms should be abandoned in favor of the original
> > > definitions—
> >
> > I'd like to see them dropt _entirely_ because they're
> > confusing.  There are those like Galen who try to make sense
> > of the terms and misunderstand them.  There are others, like
> > me, who come from a tradition where they have been used to
> > denote certain groups of auxlangs and who, consequently, are
> > confused by their use to describe certain artlangs (or
> > engelangs) in a somewhat different way.
>
> I think both usages are now so firmly established in the
> relevant fields of discourse that we cannot decree them away
> any more.  All we can do is suggest better alternatives, as
> you do below, and wait and see whether these succeed or not.
>
> > [snip]
> >
> > > Here’s the four types of conlang I refer to:
> > >
> > > A priori vocabulary, a priori grammar: Teonaht
> > >
> > > A posteriori vocabulary, a posteriori grammar: Brithenig
> > >
> > > A posteriori vocabulary, a priori grammar: Toki Pona
> > > (creoles are like this, too, in a sense)
> > >
> > > A priori vocabulary, a posteriori grammar: English relex
> >
> > Wouldn't something like 'original' and 'derived' be more
> > meaningful and less confusing?  Thus:
> >
> >           VOCABULARY  GRAMMAR
> > TEONAHT    original   original
> > BRITHENIG  derived    derived
> > TOKI PONA  derived    original
> > ENG. RELEX original   derived
> >
> > One can argue how useful that is - but at least it seems to
> > me a lot less confusing than the fairly meaningless "a
> > priori" and "a posteriori" thing.
>
> I agree with you that "original" and "derived" are better
> terms than the philosophically laden "a priori" and
> "a posteriori", and if you feel uneasy with the latter, just
> do not use them!  Yet, there is no way denying that the usages
> you decry are common practice in the relevant fields.
>
> Also, what artlangers call "a posteriori" is a jumble of (at
> least) two very different ways of coming up with a language
> starting from pre-existing languages: (1) selecting vocabulary
> from one or more source languages as in an "a posteriori" IAL
> (2) applying diachronic changes to a starting language.
>
> > Maybe it is helpful to have artlangs described thus.  But
> > with engelangs I feel such table would not (always) be
> > helpful.  For example, Tom Breton's AllNoun would be
> > labeled: Vocabulary: derived; grammar: original.  But that's
> > only because Tom wasn't interested in the vocabulary, only
> > in the experiment of building a language with just one part
> > of speech, i.e. noun.  He used English in his examples
> > simply for convenience; *it's not intrinsic to the language*.
> >
> > I guess, at least for engelangs, we ought to have another
> > label besides 'original' and 'derived'; at the moment I
> > can't think of anything better than 'not relevant.'
> > Thus:
> >            VOCABULARY    GRAMMAR
> > AllNoun   not-relevant  original
>
> Yes.
>
> > Just some suggestions and thoughts - nothing prescriptive  :)
>
> Of course not.  But a suggestion of new, less misleading and
> less philosophically laden terminology is always welcome!
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
>

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December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
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October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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