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CONLANG  June 2014, Week 2

CONLANG June 2014, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Inequities of IPA

From:

"J. 'Mach' Wust" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 10 Jun 2014 15:13:28 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (87 lines)

On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 18:44:22 +0100, And Rosta wrote:

>J. 'Mach' Wust, On 10/06/2014 17:05:
>> On Mon, 9 Jun 2014 10:38:17 +0100, And Rosta wrote:
>>> What is phonetic fortisness and lenisness?
>>
>> If I am not mistaken, there is not much theoretical agreement what
>> the fortis–lenis distinction is about. It is easier to say what it is
>> not about: It is not about voice onset time (voice or aspiration).
>> Traditionally, it is being described as articulatory force. It is not
>> quite clear how this force would translate into more recent
>> linguistic terminology. This is probably the reason why the terms are
>> often absent, though my impression is that this is much more the case
>> in English linguistics than in German linguistics.
>>
>> In practical terms, though, the distinction is well established to
>> the point that phonetic researchers easily distinguish five shades of
>> fortis and lenis (fortis, weak fortis, fortis-lenis, hard lenis,
>> lenis), or even more.
>
>It's easy to see how "force of articulation" could apply to
>fricatives, and given an explicit aerodynamic characterization --
>ratio of airflow to aperture size, and degree of turbulence.
>
>After a bit more reading around I see that fortis--lenis as a
>phonetic phenomenon seems to boil down to intrabuccal air pressure,
>where fortes have higher intrabuccal pressure due to a wide open
>glottis while lenes have lower pressure, due to glottal constriction
>due to whisper or modal voice (or other phonation). So I guess the
>IPA voicelessness diacritic in effect means 'whispered'.

That may well be a possible description of the distinction. Of
course, this does not mean that the contrast disappears when actually
whispering.


>>>> On top of that, while the Prussian pronunciation of the allophones of
>>>> /r/ is often very precisely transcribed, other allophonic variations
>>>> are usually not indicated at all, most notably, the aspiration of
>>>> plosives, even though it is another very characteristic trait of the
>>>> Prussian pronunciation. There are many transcriptions such as [kaːɐ̯l
>>>> ˈhaɪnʀɪç ˈmaːɐ̯ks], [ˈkʀaftvɛɐk], or [ˈkʏnstlɐ.ʁoˌmaːn] (examples
>>>> from the English wikipedia) that are, so to say, überphonetic on the
>>>> /r/, but plainly phonemic on the plosives. To me, this is just
>>>> inconsistent.
>>>
>>> I largely agree, but in this particular case a justification might be that
>>> in a broad phonetic transcription [k] can reasonably generalize over
>>> varieties of [k] differing in place, phonation, release, and so forth, for
>>> a voiceless affricated postvelar plosive can be broadly counted as a [k],
>>> whereas there is no phone that can be defined with sufficient latitude to
>>> encompass all realizations of /r/; a brief low vowel or a retroflex
>>> approximant cannot be counted as an alveolar trill, for example.
>>
>> The traditional solution that is used in other encyclopediae is using
>> plain [r]. This works equally well for German as it does for English.
>> It is in accordance with what might be called Occam's IPA razor: If
>> there are several potential transcriptions, use the easiest one (a
>> regular letter of the Latin alphabet, if available).
>
>/r/ works fine for English or German but [r] is terrible, and is
>precisely what I was originally railing against, as is the principle
>of Occam's IPA razor, which dictates symbol choice on the basis of
>the uses of the symbol in other alphabets rather than on phonetic
>criteria. For, say, any English English dialect, [r] for /r/ is
>guaranteed to be wrong (except after dental fricatives in emphatic
>articulations, in some idiolects, such as mine). If you need to
>generalize over a range of licit allophones, at least pick a symbol
>that corresponds to one of those licit allophones, ideally the most
>average one -- by whatever type of average -- rather than the most
>typographically inconspicuous one.

I disagree with regard to broad dictionary transcription that are
rather phonemic because they should apply to the most varieties
possible. [r] is a perfectly licit allophone of German /r/. Besides
its occuring in varieties of German (both in the standard and in
dialects), there is the prescriptive tradition that would have [r] as
the only permissible allophone. And [r] might even be considered the
most average insofar as it is the only allophone that may occur
unrestricted in terms of syllable structure and surrounding sounds.
By comparison, other licit allophones such as [ʁ] or [ɐ] are more
restricted.

-- 
grüess
mach

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