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AUXLANG  June 2014, Week 4

AUXLANG June 2014, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Phonotactics and Sonary hierarchy in IAL's

From:

Logan Streondj <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 27 Jun 2014 05:50:24 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (163 lines)

On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 16:20:15 -0700
Leo Moser <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Phonotactics and Sonary hierarchy in IAL's
> 
>  
> 
> One way to deal with things like Mkaw, is to assume a schwa between any otherwise 'unpronounceable' letters.
> 
>             Thus we would have /məkaw/
hmm well /mə'kawə/ primary stress on the ka, which in the case of mkaw is a low central vowel. 
> 
> How many IAL's have a schwa? 

I dono, there are lots of IAL's.
Mkaw has the implicit one, which is to be used as described.
but also introduces an explicit one at 6-bit alphabet complexity (advanced users).

> 
> Not many are described as having one, but it seems to me that one may be in several of them in fact.
> 
> Do many non-European Esperantists insert schwas in words like postscio, altkreska, konstrui, knabo, gvidi, scii, skvamo, lingvgvido, psikologio, postskribo, transskribi?

ya, altkreska i needed to ponder a bit before figuring out alt,kreska as the pronunciation. 
mkaw aims to make this simpler, as the worst consonant clusters, such as those in compound-words
 are always intermediated with an h glottal fricative. similar to german s intermediary
i.e. puwyhpcir child-birth the syllable break is on the h, so it /puwy,hə,pʃir/

> 
> One Esperantist states says of his language:  ‘While its easy and logical grammar is praiseworthy, the speaker has to face a poor phonology that makes the language unpronounceable and truly unrealistic.’
> 
> http://aveneca.com/cbb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3891

Mkaw has a feature I liked and borrowed from Lojban. 
It is that spaces are optional, much like in Chinese. 
Since the words can't be confused as they are of a regular consonant-vowel combination.
My current parser doesn't support it, but I've made several in the past.
It's relatively trivial to impelment. 

For instance. 
mi .u yay .a kmi .i ya
mi.uyay.akmi.iya
or "I food eat."

Point being that it is possible to pronounce it,
and parse what someone is saying, even if they are running their words together.
only mandatory pauses the . have to be made, which can be brief glottal stops.


>  
> About "s fricative" as used in "lots of natlangs like English" as "a variable sonary setting."
> 
> How many languages have such a usage of s? Is it common outside of the Indo-European languages?  How is instruksi or strategis actually pronounced in Indonesian?
> 

Of course the beneift of Mkaw, is the Indonesians can continue speaking Indonesian and still be able to use it.
In terms that they can use a more formal version of Indonesian, but with the same vocabulary, and mostly the same grammar.

For those actually speaking Mkaw, there is only one correct way of pronuncing it (unlike Esperanto or Lojban).
Computers will be taught how to do it, so people can learn from how they say it. 
Speech recognition software should still be able to understand it though,
even if a bunch of the phonemes are mispronounced,
i.e. if they use a different rhotic.
  
> 
> Is the ps- of words for psychology an example of this? How is psikologi pronounced in Indonesian?    How is psikhologiya actually pronounced by most people in Russia -- in the Central Asian languages (largely Turkic) that have borrowed their spellings from Russian?  

I speak Russian so it is /psixologia/
and yes the p in psi is pronounced, unlike the p in psyche of English.
  
> 
> Indonesian and Malay have six consonants, of course, five close to those of Spanish, and also a sixth – the schwa. (Past spelling systems have differentiated the six.)  
> 
> Is the five vowel system of so many IAL’s a symptom of Eurocentricity?
> 
> Regards to all,                    Leo Moser

Perhaps it is. 
For the beginner 3-bit language, it has 2 vowels (a i),
the moderate 4-bit language has 3 vowels (a i u),
the intermediate 5-bit language has 5 vowels (the euro ones),
and the advanced 6-bit language has 8 vowels (including mid-central, high-central, and possibly low front).

But like I said, the people that will actually use the core version of Mkaw,
would be the kind that are fans/hobbyists, advanced-programmers, linguists,
and perhaps those that would like to go to a Mkaw conference held in Mkaw.

The majority of users, will only have a passing acquaintance with it,
mostly prefering the more formal version of their own language.
Either for communicating, programming, or clearly writing their thoughts.

Mkaw (and it's nat variants) is meant to be used for "serioza internacia komunikado" as Alexandre puts it. 
Since it has the precision that would make it useful for politics, business, law and other formal proceedings.
While still being simple enough for everyday komunikado.

> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: International Auxiliary Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Logan Streondj
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 10:30 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Phonotactics and Sonary hierarchy in IAL's Re: How easy is Esperanto really?
> 
>  
> 
> On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 10:27:11 -0700
> 
> Leo Moser < <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>  
> 
> > The phonotactics designed for auxlangs seems to me a neglected subject. 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Things like scr- and ps- seem common in even many proposed worldlangs.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Puzzles me.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Regards to all,                    Leo Moser
> 
>  
> 
> Looked into phonotactics and sonary hierarchy interesting stuff. 
> 
> Mkaw is of course one of the example worldlangs with a near complete disregard of phonotactics. 
> 
> The reason in Mkaw is to shove as many roots as possible into 4 letter combinations of CCVC and CVCC. 
> 
> It's a technical limitation as 32-bit microprocessors fit 4 letters in each register.
> 
>  
> 
> The more common words are more "sonorous" or compliant. 
> 
> i.e. language is kwaw (single syllable), the name of the langauge being less usable is mkaw (bisyllable (m,kaw). 
> 
> a quiet schwa can be used for making the m syllable in mkaw.
> 
>  
> 
> In your example with the s, s fricative is somewhat a phonotactic exception, lots of natlangs like english use it in a variable sonoary setting.  
> 
> For instance ska and ksa are both monosyllables, so it doesn't really matter, wheras mwa and wma makes a big difference, as wma is bisyllable (w,ma). 
> 
>  
> 
> > 
> 
> ////
> 
> Logan Streondj < <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]>
> 


-- 
Logan Streondj <[log in to unmask]>

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December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
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September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
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February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
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June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
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March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
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July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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September 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 5
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June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
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May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
October 1997, Week 3
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October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
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May 1997, Week 3
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May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
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April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1

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