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AUXLANG  July 2014, Week 1

AUXLANG July 2014, Week 1

Subject:

Re: How easy is Esperanto really?

From:

Stephen Rice <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 4 Jul 2014 13:54:41 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (187 lines)

On 7/4/14, Scott Raney <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Stephen Rice <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
>> If we assume free choice and something relatively market-based, we
>> must expect multiple solutions. Some version of Windows can be found
>> on many computers, but many use some kind of Linux instead, or MacOS
>> or something more exotic. You rarely encounter an absolute monopoly,
>> yet that is what you posit.
>
> Not the correct analogy: It's more like TCP/IP, email (SMTP), or HTTP.
> What if every user (or host) had to use a different specification to
> communicate?  The Internet as we know it simply wouldn't exist.  The
> same is true of auxlangs: The more incompatible "protocols" we
> introduce, the less likely that the revolution that a single standard
> will support will ever arrive.

But protocols and languages are different things. It would be a good
idea to standardize protocols (communication strategies such as
"shouting will not magically enable people to understand your
language"), but that's not the same thing as all using the same
language.

>> Also, it's not hard to find cases where popularity (or anyway
>> frequency) does not equal superiority. Is Windows the best OS?
>
> This is an orthogonal question: In the programming business you hear
> the expression "horses for courses" a lot, meaning there *is* no one
> best programming language, it depends on what you're trying to
> accomplish.  This is not the case with The Auxlang: We presumably all
> are solving exactly the same problem, which is how to most efficiently
> allow people with different native languages to communicate.

But by the same reasoning, all programmers are solving the same
problem: how to program something to perform a task. So presumably
there is a best programming language, no?

We are really solving different problems: understanding the news,
ordering lunch, comparing profanities with other drivers,
communicating with colleagues from other countries, explaining Life to
a bureaucrat, explaining to the police how you were forced to explain
(by example) Death to a bureaucrat, and so on. If you look at the kind
of things people would actually need to do with auxlangs, most of them
could be accomplished by a simple creoloid. In fact, most could
probably be accomplished using a few sections out of phrasebook. There
is the problem of scholarly communication, but that is probably a
minority issue: I think you'll find most people aren't engaged in such
endeavors.

As such,
> which is "best" doesn't matter, so long as it surpasses some threshold
> (i.e., is good enough, and has a strong enough movement behind it,
> that people come to believe it is The Auxlang).

I can't help thinking that every time you write "The Auxlang" you're
crossing yourself or sacrificing a goat. It's rather disquieting.

Anyway, I would contend that there is a sociological or psychological
force working to prevent an auxlang from achieving that threshold
until the coming of the Auxlang Epiphany. (I lose more goats writing
that!)

>> It's worse than that. Think of the message we're sending: we want to
>> help humanity, and we're willing to slander and backstab each other to
>> do so. What a splendid example of cooperation and goodwill! But
>> imagine if instead we helped each other and "valued diversity" (as a
>> current cliché goes). Instead of being psycho cranks, we might
>> actually seem worth listening to.
>
> You apparently advocate anarchy, which I guess means I'm on the side
> of The Leviathan (a massive, well organized, government).

I don't advocate anarchy; the apposite term is "subsidiarity."

But you're
> right, at some point my proposal requires an targeted effort to
> discredit Esperanto, Interlingua, etc.  Which fortunately won't
> require a lot of effort since those things are all by definition
> failed projects.

What dictionary are you using for these definitions? I don't see that
they are failed; they just need a particular precondition (the
Epiphany) before they can succeed. Anyway, they have more adherents
than you do, so humility might be a good thing.

And if the rival projects are so inferior that they only have a
hundred to a few thousand times more support than you do, people will
presumably figure that out without being told. So cooperation costs
nothing and makes you look like a nice guy who isn't out for Dictator
of the World.

Just a thought.

Once a technically superior and modern replacement
> is available

Historically, those replacements don't work out as well as what they
try to replace.

that *also* comes with support from an outside source
> (that political movement), it will be straightforward to replace them
> in the public's mindshare (or at least what little mindshare any of
> these languages currently have).  What remains is the issue of how to
> convert proponents of those other languages to the new one: Zealots
> are hard to convert, but each time you succeed in doing it you gain a
> powerful advocate for your cause (there is no better testimonial than
> from a former user of another product).

I'd count all the unhatched eggs in this statement, but I don't want
to take off my shoes and socks. Anti-pollution laws muzzle free
speech.

>> But let's ignore that and assume mutual unintelligibility. I figure
>> 3-5 auxlangs, so we'll assume five. It doesn't much matter which ones.
>> Suppose you could be absolutely sure of communicating with anyone on
>> earth just by learning five natlangs. Wouldn't that be a major
>> improvement over the status quo? And imagine the EU, UN, etc. getting
>> by with just five languages! Now consider that auxlangs are generally
>> easier than natlangs. Also, the translation programs would focus on
>> translation among those five, so you would really only need to know
>> one well (the one that's the best fit for you)--passive acquaintance
>> with the other four would probably suffice.
>
> But why introduce this extra burden if you don't have to?  Do you have
> five different web browsers or five different email applications?

No, but I'm not everybody--and vice versa. Probably no one does have
that many browsers or whatever. But that many browsers exist. On those
rare occasions when I use a computer at the local library, I get to
use Internet Explorer. It's not my preference--presumably it's someone
else's--but I can use it. I don't have to force other people to adopt
my preferences, and I hope they will show the same restraint towards
me.

>>> Oh, and to respond to another of your posts about utility, I'd like to
>>> point out again that utility depends not just on being able to use it
>>> for business or for hobbiest-type needs: A worldwide *political*
>>> movement would be an even more powerful incentive for people to learn
>>> the auxlang...
>>
>> It would also be a powerful incentive for those who disagree with the
>> movement to despise the auxlang.
>
> Definitely.  The two in my mind live or die together.  This makes
> doing both well necessary (so that one doesn't bring the other down),
> but also provides synergy that just isn't available any other way
> (i.e., The Auxlang will benefit far more from it's association with
> the political movement than vice versa, and this is a good thing since
> it's so much more difficult to get people to master a new language
> than to join a political cause).

Let's go over that carefully. Languages are usually apolitical: you
needn't agree with homaranismo to use Esperanto, and English has been
the language of both capitalism and communism, aristocracy and
democracy. You're advocating a politicized language, which means your
support will derive from the intersection of People Who Agree With
Your Politics and People Who Agree With Your Auxlanging. I suspect
that will be a small demographic.

>> You're no more likely to get majority
>> support for a political movement than for an auxlang.
>
> Ye of little faith!

I have plenty of faith, and it all says you're digging your own grave here.

>> And if you did
>> approach majority support, you would encounter the backlash effect
>> anyway--and rightly so: any movement that popular would swiftly become
>> tyrannical. Power corrupts, and absolute power is only a good idea if
>> I have it. Or something like that.
>
> It of course would have to be a direct-democracy movement (i.e., there
> *is* no one in power, except us).

What protection do the minorities have? One of the problems with a
single global government is precisely the likelihood of tyranny: the
disfavored groups would have nowhere to flee for refuge, and the
temptation to expunge dissent would prove irresistible. And since
you've already expressed a willingness to quash rival auxlangs, I'm
quite sure you could rationalize the removal of other undesirables.
Utopia or dystopia? Since you're interested in definitions, you might
try this one: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hubris

Steve

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April 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 3
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January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
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September 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 3
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October 2001, Week 1
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September 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
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January 2001, Week 3
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January 2001, Week 1
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