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AUXLANG  July 2014, Week 1

AUXLANG July 2014, Week 1

Subject:

Re: How easy is Esperanto really?

From:

Logan Streondj <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 4 Jul 2014 23:27:57 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (284 lines)

Scott, 
thanks for replying to my message,
I think we have a lot in common,
and I hope that we can cooperate.

On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 16:37:57 -0600
Scott Raney <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 1:54 PM, Stephen Rice <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> standardizing language has exactly the same
> justification and benefits as standardizing protocols:
> interoperability.

yep :-)

> 
> >>> Also, it's not hard to find cases where popularity (or anyway
> >>> frequency) does not equal superiority. Is Windows the best OS?
> >>
> >> This is an orthogonal question: In the programming business you hear
> >> the expression "horses for courses" a lot, meaning there *is* no one
> >> best programming language, it depends on what you're trying to
> >> accomplish.  This is not the case with The Auxlang: We presumably all
> >> are solving exactly the same problem, which is how to most efficiently
> >> allow people with different native languages to communicate.

I hope you can learn to understand that programming languages, 
and human languages are the different sides of the same coin.
Horses are still horses, they are relatively the same.
Currently with programming, it is like a whole zoo.

> >
> > But by the same reasoning, all programmers are solving the same
> > problem: how to program something to perform a task. So presumably
> > there is a best programming language, no?
> 
> No: writing OS code is fundamentally different from writing
> device-driver code which is fundamentally different from writing UI
> code, and although you can write all three in some languages, there
> are vast differences in development productivity and performance of
> the resulting product.  The analogy with languages might be having
> different languages for business/science/travel/diplomacy, but I
> believe that given the severe limits of the human brain we really
> can't expect people (unlike programmers) to learn multiple languages.

Programmers are people to.
They don't like learning new languages either.
There are far too many programming languages,
and none of them can do everything.
Imagine that to cook food you need to learn one language,
to wash dishes you need another, and do the laundry you need a third,
It's absolute madness! I know at least a dozen programming languages and scripts, 
and it's hardly the tip of the iceberg. 


> 
> > As such,
> >> which is "best" doesn't matter, so long as it surpasses some threshold
> >> (i.e., is good enough, and has a strong enough movement behind it,
> >> that people come to believe it is The Auxlang).
> >
> > I can't help thinking that every time you write "The Auxlang" you're
> > crossing yourself or sacrificing a goat. It's rather disquieting.
> 
> Yeah, I'm a zealot, and there's no disguising that.  I'm am curious as
> to why I seem to be the only one, though.  Are the rest of you just
> burned out?  What is the purpose of an auxlang that distinguishes it
> from a conlang?

It is good to be passionate about your cause. 

The main "worrisome" aspect of your expressions, is that on the one hand
you claim to support a direct-democracy approach with community,
on the other you wish to suppress and destroy the existing ones, i.e. EO.
This is a contradiction.

Know that to speak unwell of another is hubris,
and generally can only hurt the speaker.
A good leader finds the good in others,
compliments it, emphasizing it's value,
and thus bringing out the best in them.


> > But you're
> >> right, at some point my proposal requires an targeted effort to
> >> discredit Esperanto, Interlingua, etc.  Which fortunately won't
> >> require a lot of effort since those things are all by definition
> >> failed projects.
> >
> > What dictionary are you using for these definitions? I don't see that
> > they are failed; they just need a particular precondition (the
> > Epiphany) before they can succeed. Anyway, they have more adherents
> > than you do, so humility might be a good thing.
> 
> See my other post.  As for humility, what, I'm supposed to *respect*
> that Esperanto has as many users as FB had within weeks of its first
> release?  Give me a little ambition over humility any day...

Ambition is good surely.
Though realize learning even an auxlang is much more difficult,
 than signing up to a social network.

> 
> > And if the rival projects are so inferior that they only have a
> > hundred to a few thousand times more support than you do, people will
> > presumably figure that out without being told. So cooperation costs
> > nothing and makes you look like a nice guy who isn't out for Dictator
> > of the World.
> >
> > Just a thought.
> 
> My mom always used to say "Nice guys have got cleat marks on their
> faces".  FB/Google/Amazon/Microsoft/etc. didn't get where they are by
> encouraging the competition...

nor did they pay it much mind.
The companies which tend be successful over the long term such as IBM,
judge their progress based on their own previous achievements.
Those that only wish to outdo the competition,
get lazy once they are ahead.

Amongst some monkey primate hierarchies,
the leaders tend to help the weak,
and the rival(s) help the strong.

Helping the weak evens the playing field,
helping the strong make a coup more likely.

> 
> > Once a technically superior and modern replacement
> >> is available
> >
> > Historically, those replacements don't work out as well as what they
> > try to replace.
> 
> True, but we're now past stone tablets, movable type, vinyl, and
> magnetic tape and moving into a digital era.  And I'd estimate that
> there's just enough time for one more attempt before the window of
> opportunity closes and English becomes The Auxlang.

French used to be "The Auxlang". 
And before that it was Latin,
before that, Greek. 
Simply the language of the dominant superpower. 
If as you say we are to have a global direct democracy approach. 
Then people must be able to participate,
in the way that is easiest for them,
in their own native language,
or a close cousin.

If it is limited to anglophones,
then it is an exclusive oligarchy,
rather than an inclusive democracy.


> 
> Of course it only works if both the language and the political system
> are clearly better than the existing systems.  But then, I can't
> imagine much lower of a hurdle ;-)

:-) so what is your political proposal?
And more specifically, how is your language necessary in order for it to work?

> 
> > What protection do the minorities have? One of the problems with a
> > single global government is precisely the likelihood of tyranny: the
> > disfavored groups would have nowhere to flee for refuge, and the
> > temptation to expunge dissent would prove irresistible.
> 
> So tribalism/nationalism is a good thing because I can always flee to
> Jordan when my Syrian dictator starts killing my family?  Bzzzt,
> thanks for playing...

Personally I think neotribalism is great.
If anything we need smaller polities, with greater diversity of policies.
That can maximize diversity of life experience,
and thus the survival chances of our species.

Why send to jail or worse, when can simply deport them to a polity where their "crime" is acceptable behaviour?
Can still have larger overarching polities, to help maintain interpolity peace,
but they need only govern interpolity relations, 
and not so much what happens within them,
unless of course it affects other polities.

> 
> >  And since
> > you've already expressed a willingness to quash rival auxlangs, I'm
> > quite sure you could rationalize the removal of other undesirables.
> > Utopia or dystopia? Since you're interested in definitions, you might
> > try this one: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hubris

Good one, yes hubris.
I used to be prone to that myself.
Well at least to my knowledge it is past-tense.

On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 11:20:57 -0600
Scott Raney <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Logan Streondj <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> > Certainly Scott, I agree politics is a major factor.
> > It is politicians that most require understanding clearly what someone from a foreign culture wishes to express.
> 
> My plan is to mostly do away with politicians too, which solves two
> big problems:
> 
doing away with people or things is not part of an inclusive environment.

> 1) Representative government is inherently corrupt (which is what my
> book is about)

Representatives can do what their constituents recommend,
if there was a way for them to know what that was.
It may be possible with appropriate software.

> 
> 2) The Auxlang becomes integral to the process rather than just being
> a possibly-dispensed-with add-on.
> 
> > Also from my understanding many auxlangs fail because they can't cope with community contributions.
> 
> Right: using crowdsourcing for the language definition solves this
> problem not only during the initial design phase, but also as an
> on-going means of refining the language as needed in the future.
> 
yep

> > Thus I've decided it would be a good idea to implement a parlimentary democratic approach,
> > which is based on the Robert's Rules of Order.  The Speaker would be the robot compiler,
> > People would address the Speaker in the language of their choosing,
> > it would check their grammar and clarify ambiguities, as well as queue it for posting.
> > Then the speaker would address the assembled peoples in their respective languages.
> > Or address them in Mkaw, and their local (software) interpreters would translate to their prefered language.
> > The proceedings could be held in the form of a chat, and archived as a forum.
> 
> My opinion is that although machine translation is a useful tool, it
> will not be capable of doing what you're expecting within our
> lifetimes.  Once AI has advanced to the point where the machines can
> *understand* what we're saying, the translation issue pretty much goes
> away.  But we can't wait that long.
> 

Have you tried Google Translate?
It's good enough to understand just about any foreign language.
Really the only way mine can even compete,
is that it is also a programming language.

> > The legislation could also be written in mkaw,
> > thus making it readable in any supported language.
> > It could be automatically edited based on the motions(proposals) passed(enacted).
> >
> > Ideally this would allow for a more direct-democratic approach to politics.
> > Since various polities, both physical(regions, buildings) and virtual (businesses/groups),
> > would be able to more easily manage their laws and recieve contributions from members.
> >
> > I was even thinking that since the source-code will eventually be in Mkaw,
> > people could submit patches to it through the same process.
> > It would be voted in by the community or maintainers.
> 
> Sounds like we agree on a lot of the new system. 

Yes. You have some good qualities certainly,
you seem to want to create some benefit for the world. 
Focus on creating that benefit, and let others do as they will.
Can include them of course, for a more joyful ride.

> I'm not as sure that
> the language needs to be as integrated to the core as you're
> proposing, but it's definitely worth considering...
>   Regards,
>     Scott
> 

Well since I'm working on making an AGI that can be reincarnated into,
would need to be able to do everything from the lowest to highest levels,
with a single language, which the soul can activate via some sensors.

> > --
> > Logan Streondj <[log in to unmask]>

-- 
Logan Streondj <[log in to unmask]>

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July 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 3
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June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
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June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
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April 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 3
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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August 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 2
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
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December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
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November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
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February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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September 2002, Week 3
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June 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 1
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September 2000, Week 1
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 1

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