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AUXLANG  July 2014, Week 5

AUXLANG July 2014, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Translation costs Re: How easy is Esperanto really?

From:

Scott Raney <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 28 Jul 2014 22:29:21 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (219 lines)

On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Stephen Rice <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Sorry about the delay. My horse-drawn automobile and ISP (which I
> suspect is actually squirrel-powered) both took ill with a blown
> fetlock or something.

Better late than never ;-)

> I think there's a category error here: you keep treating fundamentally
> different things as essentially identical. Languages are not tech
> toys.

Why not?  A language is just a tool, like a fork or a screwdriver.
I'll grant you that it's a pretty huge marketing problem to get people
to realize this...

> Going a little
>> off topic, this has come up on the direct-democracy mailing lists I'm
>> on too, and the counter-argument analogy is that I'm not prejudiced
>> against blind people if I state that I don't believe that they should
>> be allowed to drive cars.  Same with authoritarians:
>
> No: blindness is objectively verifiable; being  an authoritarian is
> not. There is not, I think, a standard definition for that term--yes,
> I know Altemeyer fiats a definition, but that doesn't make it an
> objective standard, however popular it may be in some circles.

It's as objectively verifiable as blindness, not even counting the
vague concept of "legally blind".  It's not a *popular* conception,
but then again IMHO that's because it's just (possibly way) ahead of
its time.  Researchers in the field also have to deal with the issue
that separating one particular subset of the population out for
scrutiny goes against our "politically correct" zeitgeist, and most
simply decide that there are easier ways to make a living.

My view is that we're at the place with the study of authoritarianism
that Darwinism was for the first 50 years after the publication of the
Origin of Species: Most experts in the field accepted the basic
premises, but all had major doubts and the general public was largely
ignorant of the details (although one might argue that they still are
;-)  Over the next 20 years as it gains traction I predict that we'll
discover that authoritarianism explains human history far better than
historians or political scientists ever have, the result being that it
will eventually have a far greater impact on human civilization than
Darwinism has.

> If you will entertain an alternative view, I would suggest the late
> Prof. Rummel's site:
>
> https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/welcome.html
>
> I don't entirely agree with him, but he was generally on the right track.

I certainly agree on the freedom vs. totalitarian issue, which his
main theme.  He does not cite Altemeyer, however, nor ever discuss RWA
or SDO.  And although he uses the term "authoritarian" almost a
hundred times in the documents on that site, it is always in the
context of a form of government and not a personality type.  To
summarize, he obviously never understood *how* authoritarian regimes
form, nor that the prejudice that is inherent in authoritarians which
is what leads to "democide".  Not his fault, it's just not the way
political scientists tend look at the world (but then, as I point out
repeatedly in my book, this is exactly why both political scientists
and historians have done such a damn poor job of providing us any
tools to actually prevent or even understand these kinds of problems).

> They're just not
>> the kind of people we want making decisions about how civilization
>> should be organized and run.  Don't believe me?  Read the literature,
>> starting with the Global Change Game experiment Bob Altemeyer ran and
>> covers in his book (Spoiler alert: The authoritarians blow up the
>> earth, the non-authoritarians don't).  That link again is:
>> http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
>
> Wowsers! It's morbidly amusing that he's so alarmed at those evil
> people he disagrees with that he doesn't realize that
>
> 1. he himself is taking an authoritarian tone and sounds rather scary

He doesn't "disagree" with them.  He's actually a relatively
conservative guy himself, and probably agrees with most of their
positions.  It's their *predictable* irrationality and prejudice that
distinguishes them from other types of conservatives and what makes
them dangerous if we don't recognize this and engineer our social
systems to compensate.

> 2. some of the people he evidently thinks are on the side of the
> angels are doing the same things he decries in the evil people he
> dislikes.

I don't get your point.  He's a social psychologist, which means it's
very unlikely that he divides the world into angels and devils (indeed
he explicitly advises against this in at least two places in that
book).  I'm a little more open about prescribing corrective action to
constrain authoritarian tendencies and opportunities, but certainly
don't see them as being evil.  To me they're just like the blind or
schizophrenics or pedophiles: We need to let them live their lives
with as much freedom as possible, but there are just certain things we
ought not to allow them to do.  Holding positions of power in
representative (let alone totalitarian) governments being the
authoritarian equivalent of allowing pedophiles to become priests or
grade-school teachers, or allowing blind people to drive. The end
result is the same in all those cases: Somebody is going to get hurt.
The difference being that while pedophiles or blind drivers might harm
handfuls to dozens of people, authoritarians have a tendency to kill
(or support killing) thousands or even millions of them.

> There are other problems, but those are enough for me.
>
>>> Yet I see this sort of attitude more and more: no proper debate, just
>>> demonizing opponents. I don't see that such a mindset is conducive to
>>> international peace and understanding--or the acceptance of auxlangs.
>>> It can easily lead to war and a new dark age, however, which is more
>>> what I expect from it.
>>
>> On the contrary, Altemeyer's work (and many followup studies,
>> hopefully including my book) are really a shining beacon for how to
>> finally *solve* these problems that we've been struggling with for the
>> last few thousand years.  It's an antidote or vaccination against war
>> and another dark age, not a potential cause.  The fact that it's not
>> politically correct does present a problem, but as I point out in my
>> book, the irony of authoritarians needing to be protected by the
>> shield of political correctness is pretty delicious.
>
> Actually, the things he's spouting are politically correct at this
> point. There is no discernible danger in making such claims--not to
> him, anyway. A lot of innocent people have reason to worry, though.

I go into this a lot more in my book, which is a lot farther than he
was willing or able to go: I don't have a reputation or career that I
need to preserve and so have a freedom that he unfortunately never
had.  It's definitely *not* PC to advocate discrimination against a
certain subset of the population, something he tiptoes around very
carefully whereas I'm able to take a more bold path.

> But all this is getting way too political for a linguistic forum. I do
> try to limit my rants to major holidays.

It's Christmas in July!  I think there's no problem debating this, as
the list-mom has us all on a pretty long leash (which I appreciate!).
If I'm right and the auxlang *does* require a political movement to
become established, discussing these issues is not only relevant but
essential.

(big snip)

> Similarly, I'm saying that if we foresee a negative outcome to a
> particular course, and if we can avoid it, we should do so. There is
> no real need to replace existing languages, only to add to their
> number in a way that will overcome real communication barriers without
> endangering languages and cultures. "First, do no harm."

You seem to be predicting this for either the auxlang or direct
democracy.  I tend to doubt you have the foresight to predict whether
our working toward either of them would have a net positive or net
negative impact a century from now.  We're not talking about building
biological weapons here, it's more like attempting to suppress
stem-cell research, which is a much grayer area (unless you happen to
be an atheist, in which case it should be fairly clear that at least
this is a religious issue and not a matter of simple conservatism or
pragmatics).

(another big snip)

> All this assumes (roughly) the single-auxlang solution. But a
> multiple-auxlang solution would yield essentially the same result:
> since the common-use auxiliary would be fairly small and simple,
> again, an active mastery of one and passive understanding of others
> would work--perhaps LFN, Inlis, and Pandunia. Since the professionals
> would mostly discuss things among themselves, it wouldn't cosmically
> matter if doctors used Interlingua, general scientists used Esperanto,
> and lawyers used Sambahsa. Perhaps a single standard would emerge;
> perhaps not. I suspect that the typical "tribalism" of different
> professions and disciplines would lead to mutually unintelligible
> choices. And I doubt the planet would explode as a result.

Reminds me of a saying in computer science (and probably many
engineering fields): The wonderful thing about standards is that there
are so many to choose from!

What you're proposing is a horribly inefficient system, like everybody
having different power delivered to their house and having to buy
appliances to match.  Everything costs more, everyone's quality of
life suffers, and for no good reason other than some vague fear that
having a single standard will lead to some sort of loss of diversity
or the rise of totalitarianism (or maybe just a decrease in your own
personal self-worth or marketability if your language isn't the one
chosen).

> Now, you will predictably say that this will hamper adoption of any
> auxlang. No: it will make it easier, because it will allow precise
> targeting. The two kinds of needs, basic and advanced, imply two
> different strategies. We begin with the smaller, simpler auxlang,
> because it can be mistaken for a game or toy, and its value as an
> auxlang can be discovered by accident.

Baloney: Multiple standards just leads to market inefficiency.
Everyone needs the same electrical power specs, to drive on the same
side of the road, and use the same TCP/IP system to communicate over
the Internet.  Speaking the same language is more like those things
than it is like choosing a laptop or brand of jeans: It's not a matter
of individual choice, it's about interoperability.

> I say "No, the potential
>> benefits vastly outweigh the risks, and besides, this is not even for
>> us to decide".
>
> Our descendants will find their own ways of messing things up, yes.
> It's a great tradition of our species. But if we can make it less
> likely without endangering the goal of unrestricted international
> communication, I see no reason not to implement a safeguard.

Agreed, the key point being "without endangering the goal of
unrestricted international communication"  Only a single auxlang
standard will support this.
  Regards,
    Scott

> Steve

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December 2000, Week 5
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