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AUXLANG  July 2014, Week 5

AUXLANG July 2014, Week 5

Subject:

Re: World language phonemes

From:

Leo Moser <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 12:35:42 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (86 lines)

Leo remarks,
I have long believed that the pronunciation of the phonemes in any IAL should be rigidly defined. Yes, as rigidly as possible -- using the IPA.

I have gotten a lot of flak over this for many years. 
A lot!  
I recall when I was for a while on the team designing Novial98 and I disapproved of Jespersen's system that CH could be pronounced either /tS/ or /S/. I became almost a pariah in the group for such blasphemy.

Now this does not mean I don't believe in allophones. I do, but only when the system for their creation is just as rigid. 

All pronunciation should be based on strict rules set up for the IAL, working uniformly within the IAL. Nothing should be 'flexible' and allow each user to apply his or her natural language habits to the IAL. Too many potential users with too many diverse habits make this approach very dangerous. It will be far safer for everyone if rigid standards are set at the outset.

I keep using the world 'rigid,' although I know it turns some people off. But it's nice and descriptive.

Many IAL's that claim to be 'phonetic' are in fact wobbly about pronunciation. Current Esperanto tends to allow either of two pronunciations for that little H with a hat. Interlingua has alternate pronunciations for a significant proportion of its words. In the days when German was taken more into consideration than Chinese, the -s- between vowels was often allowed to be pronounced /z/ in IAL proposals.

In Bahasan (and Acadon)
    the letter P is /p'/ unvoiced, and aspirated 
    the letter B is /b/ voiced, never aspirated
That means two phonetic differences, a sharper distinction. 
To pronounce either letter otherwise in Acadon would be an error, but if there are persons who do, there will be something of a safety net. 
(The laws of avoidance make sure that if there are morphemes like 'butter-' or "boot-" there cannot be ones like 'putter-' or 'poot-' . . . etc.)

NOTE:
In the above system there is no plain /p/ (although it is in Mandarin, etc.); and there is no /b'/ (although it is in Hindi, etc.). 
Now, many languages (Lao for example) distinguish all four of these labial consonants:
	/p/, /p'/, /b/, and /b'/ 
but IMO it is far safer for an IAL to avoid that many subtleties in pronunciation. 

There will always be some phonetic things to learn in an IAL. Well, maybe fewer in the more minimalistic IALs. 
But let's look at Toki pona: 
http://www.omniglot.com/conscripts/tokipona.htm
Note that Toki pona allows :
	B to be pronounced /b/ or /p/ ; 
	T to be pronounced /t/ or /d/ ; 
	L to be pronounced /l/ or /r/ ;
	 etc.
All this in the name of simplicity. But simplicity can confuse.
So if 'talk Polish' might be  -- 'Toki pola'
. . then Toki pona speakers must also understand the following strings of sounds as to mean 'talk Polish' (if spoken by a Japanese, Zulu, Turk, Cantonese, etc. ) :
	Dogi bola   Togi pora    Doki bora     etc.  etc.
The Turk would of course have problems with Toki pona morphemes without vowel harmony, a Chinese would have to learn to produce toneless syllables. Many major languages (and dialects of English, Arabic, Chinese) do not have the set of 5 (like Spanish) vowels that Toki pona relies on. 

" . . . it is well known in linguistics that the most fundamental, ‘purest’ vowel system has just <i>, <u> and <a>."

All I am saying is that everyone will have to learn rules, even new rules, to pronounce any IAL so that others can understand it clearly. There will have to be some effort. 

Lax and lazy will not work. 'No pain no gain,' they say.  

If we want clarity and universal standards for an IAL, then we need clear rules for how each word SHOULD ideally be pronounced. Sloppiness is dangerous and will ultimately weaken the language.

Best regards,         Leo


 Leo Moser 
-----Original Message-----
From: International Auxiliary Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stephen Rice
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 5:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: World language phonemes

On 7/30/14, Leo Moser <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Leo adds:
> I had no idea of your spelling system, and was not suggesting that you 
> introduce mere spelling irregularities.

It's not a spelling irregularity so much as an importation irregularity. Forms are imported from English for the most part algorithmically based on pronunciation, so if "right" became *rayit, "light" would become *layit. It's all about predictability.

> What is your current list of phonemes?

Basically, the consonants are as in English (though <g> is always "hard," never "soft," etc.): b, ch, d, f, g, h, j, k, l, m, n, p, r, s, t, v, w, y  <h> is a generic aspirate--/x/ is permissible--and <r> is a generic rhotic. <s> also includes /z/. The vowels are the standard five, and the diphthongs are aw, ay, and oy.

> In respect to diphthongs, do you consider the '-we-' in laytwet to be 
> a diphthong?

No, <w> is never a vowel as an onset, though its nature is more ambiguous after a vowel. For example, in pawa (power), I'd think of the syllables as paw-wa: I expect most speakers will blur the syllable boundary, though technically it ought to be pa-wa. Similarly for faya (fire).

Is -tw- perhaps a consonant cluster?

It could be--I don't press syllabication too much, so laytwet could be broken between y-t or t-w. The second is technically preferable, as <ay> is a diphthong, and the usual break is between consonants as such, thus t-w.

> What consonant clusters do you allow?

Allowing for simplification of sounds, theoretically the same clusters found in English. However, consonant clusters and [r] aren't allowed at the end of a syllable, so that should simplify pronunciation. In my notes I observe that "sprinkle" and "strangle" are the worst forms allowed, and they aren't that bad: they're imported as sprinklin and stranglin, though I am considering -a- buffering instead of -in to avoid the final cluster (?sprinkal and ?strangal), and the initial clusters can always be -a- buffered (saprinkal or even saparinkal) as needed.

Steve

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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
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August 1999, Week 3
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August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
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May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3
September 1998, Week 2
September 1998, Week 1
August 1998, Week 4
August 1998, Week 3
August 1998, Week 2
August 1998, Week 1
July 1998, Week 5
July 1998, Week 4
July 1998, Week 3
July 1998, Week 2
July 1998, Week 1
June 1998, Week 5
June 1998, Week 4
June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 5
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 3
November 1997, Week 2
November 1997, Week 1
October 1997, Week 5
October 1997, Week 4
October 1997, Week 3
October 1997, Week 2
October 1997, Week 1
September 1997, Week 5
September 1997, Week 4
September 1997, Week 3
September 1997, Week 2
September 1997, Week 1
August 1997, Week 5
August 1997, Week 4
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August 1997, Week 1
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July 1997, Week 3
July 1997, Week 2
July 1997, Week 1
June 1997, Week 5
June 1997, Week 4
June 1997, Week 3
June 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
May 1997, Week 4
May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1

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