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CONLANG  August 2014, Week 5

CONLANG August 2014, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Revived languages (was: Constructed Jewish Languages)

From:

BPJ <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sun, 31 Aug 2014 17:39:31 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (111 lines)

That's not to say I haven't wasted time on mulling over how a unified
orthography for a dialect continuum where there are things like:

1.  some dialects having prothetic /j v/ before original syllable/word
initial /e o/ while all dialects have some words with original /je vo/ and
loans with initial /e o/ in all dialects.

2.  some dialects having palatalized or even palatoalveolarized velars
before front vowels and some not, all while there are shared words with
primary palatoalveolars, original velar+j clusters preserved in some
dialects and loans with unpalatalized velars, and then some dialects with
the same situation with dentalveolars and alveopalatalization and/or
alveolar affricates.

3.  a basic 'classic' five-vowel system which some dialects have eked out
with diphthongization and/or mostly borrowed central/back unrounded and/or
front rounded vowels, the situation being aggravated by the fact that some
back/central unrounded vowels correspond to rounded back ones and some to
front unrounded ones in other dialects.

4.  there being a contrast between unaspirated and aspirated voiceless
stops and affricates and at the same time various voiceless and voiced
affricates and fricatives in various dialects, with most dialects having
both /kʰ/ and /x/.

5.  original *nr corresponding to /r nd nr ndr/ depending on dialect.

6.  a somewhat widespread bias for English-like as opposed to (eastern)
European-like spelling.

How to solve that in all-ASCII? :-)
Den 31 aug 2014 16:42 skrev "BPJ" <[log in to unmask]>:

> Although not a revived language an interesting counterexample is the
> current efforts to make Romani a written language. There is wide agreement
> not to seek a single standard but to treat the 'tribal' and 'national'
> dialect diversity as a closely related language family, which in any case
> is closer to reality. The only exception to this seems to be that some
> advocate an ASCII clean orthography in order to make international/online
> communication easier, so that you can use any Latin-alphabet keyboard. E.g.
> _sh_ is used by some in preference to _š, sz, sj_ etc. even in countries
> where /ʃ/ is written differently in the national language. Predictably
> there is controversy over how to distinguishing /tʃ/ and /tʃʰ/; apparently
> the to me obvious _c_ vs. _ch_ ain't so to everyone!
> Den 30 aug 2014 14:56 skrev "R A Brown" <[log in to unmask]>:
>
>> On 30/08/2014 11:42, Jeff Daniel Rollin-Jones wrote:
>>
>>> Agreed on all points, Ray.
>>>
>>> There's also a dispute as to whether Ivrit is really a
>>> Semitic language like Ancient Hebrew, or some sort of
>>> relexified Yiddish. Personally, given the verbs I'd go
>>> for the former!
>>>
>>
>> From what I know, it is basically Semitic but, of course,
>> centuries of living in and around Europe and speaking
>> Yiddish or Ladino will have left its mark - particularly as
>> regards pronunciation.
>>
>>  It will be interesting to see whether this new, unified
>>> revived Cornish will gain traction in the face of the
>>> onslaught from English;
>>>
>>
>> It will never replace English, of course; but it could live
>> along side it.  I have heard the view expressed that the
>> competing forms of revived Cornish helped the language in
>> that it promoted interest.  Personally I'm skeptical.  I
>> rather think it probably put off more - people want to know
>> if the version they are learning is the 'correct' one or
>> will they have to relearn it at some time in the future.  If
>> (nearly) all can agree on a standard form it must surely help.
>>
>>  its my personal opinion that the AFAIK, so-far unique
>>> example of the revival of Hebrew was in no small part due
>>> to it happening in the sweet spot between the decline of
>>> French as an international language and the meteoric rise
>>> of English.
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps - but I cannot imagine the new state of Israel in
>> 1948 would have wanted to adopt either French or English as
>> its national language.  It could, of course, have adopted
>> Yiddish or Ladino - but either choice would have been
>> divisive.  The only viable options were either to adopt
>> Arabic or to adopt the already revived Hebrew.  Both are in
>> fact official languages in Israel.
>>
>>  Indeed, at one point whilst I was aware that Israel as a
>>> country had been "revived" I was under the impression
>>> that the native language of modern Israelis was English!
>>>
>>
>> A left over from the British mandate of Palestine, I guess,
>> as well as English being the ipso_facto global auxlang.
>>
>> --
>> Ray
>> ==================================
>> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
>> ==================================
>> "Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
>> wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
>> [J.G. Hamann, 1760]
>> "A mind that thinks at its own expense
>> will always interfere with language".
>>
>

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