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AUXLANG  September 2014, Week 3

AUXLANG September 2014, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Good reasons to use diacritics

From:

Logan Streondj <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:42:53 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (220 lines)

i dono, I'm still in the ASCII only camp.
until someone tells me how to write those cap letters,
with either an alt sequences or some other way, where I don't have to
learn a new keyboard layout, or install more software, 
I doubt I could be convinced. 

I don't use windows, I've got deep personal feelings against it,
I guess something like Alexandre has against English. 
Kinda makes me queasy just mentioning it. 
I'm actually kind of offended that Alexandre said it was a "typical
computer". just :| I'm sure there are some emoji's for what I'm
feeling right now.  (--__--) 

anyways, yes even I realize that have to support windows,
even though I really detest it in numerous ways. 
so I have a volunteer who is trying to compile my program on windows.
it's hard for them, because windows itself refuses to support the
Portable Operating System POSIX standard. Even it's historical
competitor Apple now supports POSIX. 
It's not going to end well for windows.

Anyways, just like how standards are best conformed to,
to make something more portable. it is best to conform to ASCII,
the original standard for writing on a computer.
that means a-z and A-Z with punctuation, that's about it. 
that stuff fits in a single byte per glyph.
if you start doing esperanto-hats or chezh hats, then you are doubling
the storage requirement for those letters. might as well use chinese
UTF16.

anyways, there are standards in this world, intentional standards, and
to be an emphasis international auxillary language, have to conform to
those standards. 

been recently looking up coding standards for C++ so ya, it really
does help smooth things over when conforming to standards. 

-- Logan


On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 03:08:24PM -0700, Leo Moser wrote:
> Alexandre says (if I translate his point correctly)
> 
> > linguistics has shown experimentally that more than 
> 
> > twenty-two or twenty-four phonemes always causes 
> 
> > frequent problems of auditory understanding  . . . 
> 
> > Therefore the size of the (26-letter) Latin alphabet 
> 
> > is more than enough.
> 
>  
> 
> Alexandre, I do not know of this linguistic evidence.
> 
> A scientific study perhaps?   Please cite.
> 
> It seems to me that the statement goes against many 
> 
> linguistic facts. There are languages with many, many 
> 
> phonemes, and they seem to work. However , I do 
> 
> agree that for an IAL 26 phonemes is enough and may 
> 
> well be more than needed.
> 
>  
> 
> Risto says:
> 
> > there are in fact some good reasons to use diacritical 
> 
> > symbols in auxiliary languages
> 
>  
> 
> I’m not so sure, although I agree with all his 
> 
> sub-points. And I see Ĉ or a C with some marking 
> 
> as the most useful diacritic for an a posterior 
> 
> language. 
> 
>  
> 
> For a while  (in Bahasan) I used C' ( a C with 
> 
> an apostrophe) for the /tʃ/ sound. But even that
> 
> seemed to bug some people. So I switched to CH.
> 
>  
> 
> These are some diacritical options:
> 
>                Ćć, Ĉĉ, Čč, Ċċ, Çç, Ḉḉ, Ƈƈ.
> 
>                 
> 
> I rather like the Maltese Ċ, but it's rarer than the Czech,
> 
> Croatian, etc. Č. Also, the dot is a bit subtle.
> 
>  
> 
> The Ƈ (in some African languages) has the advantage 
> 
> perhaps of being the most clearly seen and most 
> 
> easily distinguished, a value for dyslectics and some 
> 
> others.
> 
>  
> 
> Of those above, the Č would be my choice, I suppose. 
> 
> But I somehow cannot bring myself to introduce 
> 
> any diacritics at all.
> 
>  
> 
> The Ç (C cedilla) is a different option, found as it is 
> 
> in prestigious French and increasingly numerous 
> 
> Portuguese -- as well as in many Turkic languages. 
> 
>  
> 
> My spell-checker thinks Ç is in English -- soupçon, 
> 
> façade, Curaçao, et al. 
> 
> Of course, Ç is traditionally used for /s/ not  /tʃ/ 
> 
> but it is here and there in many languages like
> 
> English,  Dutch, etc. that use French words and 
> 
> phrases. 
> 
>  
> 
> Ç is /tʃ/ in Turkish and related languages, as well as 
> 
> Albanian.
> 
>  
> 
> On French, Portuguese, Spanish and Italian keyboards
> 
> I  believe that Ç is directly available as a separate key.
> 
> Is this so?
> 
>  
> 
> English language type keyboards have no Ç
> 
> But in Microsoft Word you can hit Ctrl+, and then 
> 
> either the small C or ⇧ Shift+C for lower case ç 
> 
> or capital Ç.
> 
>  
> 
> So what do any of you think about these
> 
> possibilities? 
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,               Leo
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> From: International Auxiliary Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]] 
> 
> On Behalf Of Risto Kupsala
> 
> Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 12:23 PM
> 
> To: [log in to unmask]
> 
> Subject: Good reasons to use diacritics
> 
>  
> 
> Despite all the criticism against Esperanto's letters with hats, there are in fact some good reasons to use diacritical symbols in auxiliary languages.
> 
>  
> 
> 1. Adding diacritical marks to existing symbols is a typical way to extend alphabet. Diacritical marks are used in most modern writing systems including Latin, Greek, Cyrillic, Arabic, Devanagari, Katakana and even Bopomofo.
> 
>  
> 
> 2. Diacritical symbols are distinctive in a good way. Jespersen left the letter C out from the original version of Novial because he concluded that it was too chaotic. It is used for representing too many different sounds in European languages, including /k, s, ts, tʃ, θ/. A diacritical version of C, such as Ĉ, is not the same thing. It clearly signals that the symbol represents a different sound than C in your native language.
> 
>  
> 
> 3. With diacritics in your repertoire, you can avoid using plain letters in unexpected ways. I use <x> to represent /ʃ/ in Pandunia and it looks strange. But there aren't any better alternatives left in Basic Latin, so... :(
> 
>  
> 
> 4. Diacritical symbols can help to retain familiar appearance of words sometimes. That's why Esperanto has hard G and soft Ĝ.
> 
>  
> 
> --Risto
> 

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