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AUXLANG  September 2014, Week 3

AUXLANG September 2014, Week 3

Subject:

Google Translate -- was: Tajpante per Esperanto kaj aliaj ekzotalfabetaj lingvoj.

From:

Leo Moser <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 20 Sep 2014 13:11:55 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (113 lines)

Often I wish that Alexandre would write in Galego or 
Spanish. They give me no trouble to read. Esperanto 
does, unless the subject matter is simple. 

Or in French, even Russian. . . .

I know that Alexandre has his personal war against 
English language domination.  (Many of us worry 
about that too.)  But his English is much clearer 
to me than any Esperanto. 

Anyway, I translated his Esperanto into English using 
Google Translate. Then I tried to understand all he 
was saying. It seemed to make no sense.  After puzzling 
over Google's English for a while, I compared the original.
Even that Esperanto was clearer to me than Google's 
supposed English translation.

Wow! Google translated the word "Esperanto" into 
the word "English" almost all through it (unless in 
the accusative or with some prepositions?) 

No wonder I was more than a bit confused. And there 
were many other confusing, almost unbelievable, 
"translations" of simple words and phrases.

Incidentally, I sent Google back a somewhat better
translation using its "improve this translation"
correction feature.

I went back today and expected that some of my 
suggestions might have led to a better translation.

There seem to have been a few changes, not much. 
So this is what I got from our good friend, who 
Google calls:
 "Alejandro Javier Kasanovo Dominican Republic":  

.................
Typing in Esperanto and other ekzotalfabetaj languages. 
        Hello to all of you. 
        This message has an indirect origin in a typical exaggerated dialogue with English diskutoforumo where, again, they boasted twice: that the problem with the accents of English, and the typing of exotic writing systems have been solved; and, additionally, that English and other helpoplanlingvoj is a good alternative to the English. Naturally, all messages appeared, appears and will appear with the English language, there! 
        After ridegi, laugh and smile about this typical frivoleco of English-speaking educated, I thought the real problem and its solutions. 
        It's no secret my opiniado about the accents of English, that, in all good helpoplanlingvo, the use of special letters or signs indicate pronunciation is a serious mistake. Simply because linguistics has shown experimentally that more than twenty-two or twenty-four phonemes always causes frequent problems of auditory understanding, as typically when you intend to distinguish (listening, not in writing) between the word "will" and the word "lust" in English; Therefore the basic Latin alphabet is more than enough. 
        That soberly said, the truth is that English is used daily accents, and that many languages ​​use writing systems not belonging to the classical group of great ŭesteŭropajn languages​​, large ŭesteŭropaj languages ​​almost always tajpeblaj under all conditions. 
        ... But the truth is that, here in Galegujo (in Europe and with Spain) I often read in manĝovendejo next to my home, offers a "pi # st" or something graphically similar. What happened? Naturally, the real word for the two languages ​​commercially used in this manĝovendejo is "Pina" (prononce as "pinja") then, in English, "pineapple" ... but the skribistemo for claims and invoices fail regularly even here, where the accent of the letter "n" is a common thing, and also a cultural symbol of identity for the kastila or Spanish language. Many other languages​​, not just the Galician and kastila, use the letter "ñ", which typically indicates a palatal variant for the phoneme "n". Naturally, in my physical Spanish keyboard for a computer, I can straight type the letter "ñ". 
        The problem, therefore, there is ... and it's great, also not resolved. 
        Komputile you have to admit, realiste, that almost all the typical computer use operaciantan system Windows (Windows). Thus reducing the problem, the question is then: how to type easily Esperanto, the Croatian, the rapanuian, Greek, Arabic, the Tamil, Chinese, Mongolian, the etiopan (amharan) and so on? 
        Now there is an official template for the typing and reading of exotic skribistemoj: unicode (Unicode). The template enkorpas and enkorpos progressively the different scripts of the languages. But to have the graphic signs are not like them to type easily, no. 
        If we want to type Esperanto unikode, there are many typewriters, but I recommend always typewriter XK. This typewriter is free, senvirusa, adrift without corrupting the system, sober consuming power of the computer and, typing with the typical iksosurogato, produces easily the twenty supersignatajn letters (six upper and six lower case). It also allows you to easily produce all iksokunmetaĵojn as "exu", "axu", "ix" or "ox". 
        However, I am a polyglot like others among you; I am a translator into English from other languages ​​and in other languages ​​of English. 
        Esperantujo, of course, produced a number of typewriters to type Esperanto komputile, which sometimes also works for typing other ekzotalfabetajn languages. We could mention klasikaĵojn as Ĉapelilo, Ek, Cleve, Esperantilo, Enter, Simredo and so on. The problem is that these typewriters and other already ekstersperantaj as UniRed, Keyman, Global Writer, UniPad, WorldPad, Unicode Document Processor and others, suffers typically and tajpe serious defects. The first flaw, of course, is the price. The free programs, which are abundant, suffer other technical flaws. The first technical flaw is that many of them only allows write several languages​​, without the possibility of adding or transforming keyboards for typing new languages​​. The second technical flaw is that many of them only allow write base texts, so the style and format we should add then an authentic word processor, itself if one just wants to underline a few words. And almost all are heavily manipuleblaj, as designed by programmers or duonprogramistoj, an aspect that removes the middle a user of a computer, and to us, other users, lantigas the job. 
        Naturally, these programs have improved ju more more. We avoid the barbarismon "always more"! Therefore, and due to the creation of new programs, you might see a typewriter very complete and comfortable to almost all the languages ​​of the world. 
        So far, I use and recommend especially the complimentary program Multikey. It can damage the system Windows, but I have prepared a floating version which does not affect the core of the system. It is a powerful and flexible softŭaro naturally useful for English but not only; all latinalfabetaj languages ​​(more than three-fourths of the languages ​​altogether!) can be written by Multikey, and generally without major problems. Also, this softŭaro write directly malrekten for the languages ​​Arabic and Hebrew. So, I need to use other typewriters only for a few other languages ​​with particular difficulties, such as the Chinese or the classical Egyptian (with hieroglyphs). The handling is a bit pezoza, but with graphics and musoklika background. 
        This message I typed with Multikey, in preparing a keyboard that takes place every supersignatan letter with the key <(which are graphically similar to ĉapeleto) plus the relevant basic letter. So <plus c are c and <over U is a W. 
        Your friend, Alejandro Javier Kasanovo Dominican Republic, e-mail trigrupo @ yahoo. es (trigrupo arobo yahoo point es).
............................

All this leads me to wonder. Has some one, some group, 
been sabotaging the Esperanto translation system?
Could that be done, perhaps by submitting BAD 
translations?

Another question:
Do we see a problem here of translating synthetic, 
agglutinating or other languages where the user may 
freely coin "words" (word-strings) from bits and pieces?
Google may be unaware of the intent or the result.
Thus wanton word-strings with prefixes and suffixes 
can create words that will not be in the corpus and 
thus do not translate.

Regards,      Leo

  Leo Moser 

-----Original Message-----
From: International Auxiliary Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Matthew Barnett
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 10:32 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tajpante per Esperanto kaj aliaj ekzotalfabetaj lingvoj

On 2014-09-20 15:00, Sylvain Auclair wrote:
> Tre strange. La "ekzotikaj" literoj de Alexandre Xavier chiuj shanghighis (ĉiuj ŝanĝiĝis) al demandosignoj, igante la legadon malfacila, dum tiuj de Kjell tute bone atingis min...
>
>> Date:    Fri, 19 Sep 2014 13:50:41 +0200
>> From:    Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo
>> 	Saluton al vi ?iuj.
>> 	?i tiu mesa?o havas nerektan devenon en tipa troiga dialogo ?e 
>> anglalingva diskutoforumo [...]
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Date:    Fri, 19 Sep 2014 15:31:09 +0200
>> From:    Kjell Rehnström
>>
>> Alexandre skribas pri la problemoj
>> de la alfabetoj de helplingvoj kaj
>> ankaŭ montras ke eĉ teritoriaj
>> lingvoj povas esti malbone
>> skribitaj, ĉar oni ne havas la
>> necesajn diakritojn. La sveda
>> litero å kelkfoje misskribiĝas, kaj
>> anstataŭ la å oni ricevas á. Sed
>> nuntempe mi tre malofte vidas tiajn
>> erarojn en la reklamoj kiujn mi
>> vidas en svedio aŭ Pollando.
>
Kjell sendis sian mesaĝon en teksto kodita kiel UTF-8.

Alexandre tamen sendis sian mesaĝon en 2 formoj, HTML kaj teksto, ambaŭ koditaj kiel ISO-8859-15 (ankaŭ konata kiel Latin-9)

Ne eblas skribi "ĉ", ktp, en ISO-8859-15, do ili estas konvertataj al "?", do si via retpoŝta programaro estas agordita por ne montri la HTMLa versio, vi vidas nur la version kun la "?".

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December 2000, Week 5
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