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CONLANG  September 2014, Week 3

CONLANG September 2014, Week 3

Subject:

Re: idea: script relay

From:

Pete Bleackley <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 18 Sep 2014 08:09:39 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (1 lines)

By "sample script" I meant "sample text"

Pete Bleackley
The Fantastical Devices of Pete The Mad Scientist - http://fantasticaldevices.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Bleackley <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 8:08
Subject: Re: idea: script relay

I'm planning to use Stage 4 as the language I adapt the script for. Stage 4 is at a very early stage of development yet, so I won't be able to do a sample script. However, it's got some quite interesting phonological features that should pose a challenge to adapting what came before.

Pete Bleackley
The Fantastical Devices of Pete The Mad Scientist - http://fantasticaldevices.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 1:15
Subject: Re: idea: script relay

Great to see all the interest.  I've cooked up a script which should be good to use as the starting point for a relay, fairly primitive and without toooo many tricks of its own to start with.  I've just spent a good few hours vectorising up its glyphs; hopefully the rest of the documenting goes quickly.

On the question of transferring images: yet another solution, more than a little cumbrous but hopefully not technologically out of anyone's reach, would be to create an album on http://pics.conlang.org/main.php with restricted permissions.  Perhaps it won't come to that, we have lots of solutions by now.

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:48:39 -0400, W Biggs <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>As am I. Does it have to be a conscript or can it be an obscure natscript?

It has to be a daughter of the script the person before you hands you; sorry if I wasn't clear.  
I was intending the mutation as the relay progresses not (necessarily!) to arise from difficulty in puzzling out the previous person's documentation (although fair play if this happens), but rather from the mismatches between each language and the next, plus evolutionary artistic licence.

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 09:58:02 +0200, James Kane <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I think it makes sense to be able to use whichever medium to make the conscript as some people can make beautiful fonts on a computer and others (like myself despite trying) can't.

Mhmm.  I can't really imagine imposing a condition other than "do what's convenient for you, as long as it's not totally unlikely that people will be able to read the result".

>It also makes sense to figure which medium the actual con people are using, as writing on clay and writing on palm leaves would produce different results.

Indeed.

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 10:55:21 +0200, BPJ <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>This is an awesome idea, but I'm really a bit concerned about the
>production of graphics. Cerebral palsy and WYSIWYG on-screen
>drawing really don't go well together so my remaining options
>would be scanning of hand-drawn signs which certes would not be
>pretty or MetaPost which potentially would take forever. 

(I hope it's not insensitive to ask) how not pretty are we talking?

>Also would influence from an existing script for a language count
>as cheating?

My answer would be "use your discretion; don't go overboard".  Certainly influences happen in the world, like Coptic borrowing the letters it couldn't find in Greek from hieratic, and I wouldn't want to put my foot down on that sort of thing.  But saying "these 26 letters are identified with A..Z and the language is now written as it is in Roman" would be No Fun.  

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 00:18:31 +0100, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>An adaptation of a script depends on the adapter's understanding of the source. On the signans side, there is potentially the distinction between the graphemes and the allographs, and on the signatum side there is the question of how to characterize the signatum -- phoneme? allophone? something else?
>
>But in the relay, the adapter's understanding of the source is going to be determined by the sophistication of the info they receive from the previous. This means a main determinant of the course the relay takes is the sophistication of the description sent on. I wonder if this dimension of variation could be reduced by standardizing what is sent on -- but I can't yet think of what would be a viable minimum amount of info. 

Do you think the minimum is the correct place to standardise, or merely the only viable place?  I guess we'd really like to standardise at the maximum, were that possible.

I'm not sure whether standardising would give a more or a less pleasing result on the whole.  Certainly, for any standardising process, there are fun things one might do which it'll cut out -- example off the top of my head, if we didn't standardise alphabetical order data then there'd be no room for re-sortings like Arabic had, passing from the Phoenecian order to the order by rasm, and they're fun.  

Mach makes the case for less:

On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 17:54:43 -0400, J. 'Mach' Wust <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Wouldn't the disparity of descriptions add to the quirks? There must
>be numerous ANADEW where a scripts were adapted in quirky ways
>because the adapters did not fully understand the original. The most
>extreme examples may be the likes of Sequoyah who arguably adapted
>the Latin script without having the slightest clue how it worked.

but I'm not sure: given a sufficiently hard-to-understand description, the resulting script is probably going to be simpler than the source, which is probably less interesting from the outside even if fluent users of the source script would be amused that their letter for weak-/_ju_H/ has been repurposed as /q/.  On the first hand, "not fully understanding the original" is surely going to happen more if participants have the task of inferring all the rules from a sample, rather than being handed them.  

back to And:
>How about, say, we start with an IPA transcription of a text in random language X in conscript Y, and then the next turn takes this as a basis for adapting the script to their conlang, and adapts the text to the phonology of their conlang, writes out the text in the new version of the script, and sends it and an IPA transcription of the new version of the text onwards? I suppose a snag with that is that a text that is not onerously long will likely not include all relevant ingredients of the script.

Yes; and on top of that, adapting the same text over and over will converge towards bad coverage of phonological space.  I like the idea of asking for sample texts, but I'd give people choice: best if they manage to concoct one that exhibits all or most ingredients; if not, whatever text is to hand would do.  (Myself I'm lazy and mean to re-use a text from a translation relay or the like.)

Alex

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