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AUXLANG  September 2014, Week 5

AUXLANG September 2014, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Pivot World

From:

Leo Moser <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 30 Sep 2014 15:59:30 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (109 lines)

Logan says
> The goal is . . .  simply to convey all the meaning with precision.

Leo replies
That cannot be done via an intermediate pivot language (or code), or even directly -- lang to lang. 
Precision will be lost with each translation of a document or speech. It is inevitable. 

Your efforts may well produce something useful, but you cannot create such a pivot language. Natlangs simply have too much rattle, and each has its OWN rattle.

I am not trying to complain, I just hope to help you focus on what CAN be done. Avoid wasted efforts and disappointment.

Regards,   LEO 

 Leo Moser 

-----Original Message-----
From: International Auxiliary Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Logan Streondj
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2014 2:59 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pivot World

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 11:36:36AM -0700, Leo Moser wrote:
> 
> However, the word 'pivot language' is most specifically used in 
> linguistics to represent the concept of an effective and universal 
> designed language that can be used between any two languages and 
> produce texts without loss of meaning or any basic error. The pivot 
> language need not itself be itself speakable. It may be a complex code with numbers or the like.
> 
> Many tried to create such a thing after the Second World War. Gode 
> thought that Interlingua could do the job. Others tried Esperanto. 
> Military projects in the US and USSR eventually led many to give up, 
> US government support ended. But there was continuing work in Japan. A 
> Dutch group with heavy funding found that Esperanto did not work, 
> created a version of it to meet the failings. That did not work. Lots 
> of money, government contracts, bigger and bigger computers were used. The work  of Bar-Hillel was ignored by many.
> He had shown that "Fully Automatic High Quality Translation (FAHQT) 
> between two natural languages was impossible by machine." A pivot 
> language would be even less possible. Bar-Hillel's conclusions are 
> based on logic (with examples given), not just the sad experience of those who tried.
> 
> Best regards,  Leo
> 
>   Leo Moser

Well it wouldn't be the first time that a logical proof was disproven through implementation. 
For instance the American scientists proved that it was impossible to have a torpedo which traveled more than several tens of kilometers an hour. 
Yet the Soviets didn't read their research, and went ahead and made ones which can go at several hundred kilometers an hour. 
They simply went about it in a different way, rather than using propeller in water, they used flame propulsion with air exuding from the tip, which kept the torpedo in a bubble, effectively allowing it to travel as though it was in air. 

One of the caveats of FAHQT is the Quality part, which is subjective.
I'm not translating wild natural languages, but simply grammar and vocabulary, of constrained/controlled natural languages.
The goal is not to have a "high quality" artisitc rendition, but simply to convey all the meaning with precision. 

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 03:51:11PM -0400, Dana Nutter wrote:
> On 9/29/14 5:09 PM, Leo Moser wrote:
> >Some of us here have been accused of being 'obsessed' with vocabulary
> >-- especially those of us who might be called 'worldlangers.'
> >
> >I plead guilty of putting a lot of time into finding worldwide words.
> >(I've been at it since long before the word 'worldlang' existed.)
>
> I fell into this trap too.  It's one reason I wished I'd just taken 
> another approach and gone a priori with most of the lexicon, 
> especially considering that as mix tends to ruin any type of 
> phonosemantic qualities that are common to natlangs.
>
> Looking back I'd say it's probably more important to have a good 
> semantic schema than to be overly concerned with the labels attached 
> to each concept.

Dana, I complete agree with you
I've managed to get gloss of over 50% of framenet, cross referenced with spec-eng, oxford-3000 and wordnet, and all of vere aux fantazie esperanto book vocabulary. 
so probably within another week i'll finish framenet.
Then finalize a 16 and 256 word base in two weeks, allowing extension into a 4096 with lower compounds.

Then I can start coding in javascript,
I aim to have all the comments in translatable form. 
And all of the function and parameter names also. 
I'll probably use the underscore_names rather than the camelCase ones, which I was using earlier, as they'll be easier to parse later, especially if something contains an acronym like HTML or JSON.
That way what I code in Javascript can also be translated to Mkaw, and then to Java or C++ perhaps. 

I hope you'll find it interesting enough to join in. :-).

One thing I'd like to do with the gloss is have emotion words, like Lojban Attitudinals, then they could be translated either to the plaintext version :-) or the emoji version ☻

I've thought of a friendly way to identify the language of a particular mkaw-variant source-file, based on the first word, which is to be hello in their langauge. 

For instance standard mkaw english could be "hello".
Formal/naturalized mkaw english could be "Hello".
with plain text attitudinals "hello :-)"
with emoji attitudinals "hello ☻". 

One of my aims is to make programming more accessible to females, I've been reading a book "leadership and the sexes", which talks about the neurobiological differences, and how to help the work together best. 

Anyways females brains are more interconnected, so may benefit from multiple related stimuli, such as relations, emotions, memories and task.
wheras a male may prefer to focus on just the task.

emotions can be stimulated with emoji,
memories perhaps by giving task context, or making the help documentation easily accessible, relations by some kind of chat, forum, or mailing list, and the tasks themselves would be part of a tutorial, or other things which may benefit the big picture.

I guess this could all be provided on a single web page, chat in lower right corner, documentation top left, task top center, and emoji responses of compiler bottom center.

Anyways, what do you think of such an interface so far?
Anyones input would of course be appreciated. 

--
Logan Streondj

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