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CONLANG  November 2014, Week 1

CONLANG November 2014, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Engelang article draft

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 4 Nov 2014 11:52:02 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (44 lines)

Gleki Arxokuna, On 04/11/2014 10:41:
> 2014-11-04 0:59 GMT+03:00 Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>:
>
>> But when you drop thematic relation tags for arguments for arguments and
>> replace them by simple _numerical position_, you make your language harder
>> to learn!
>>
>> When you use "x5 place" in your project, you apply a certain rule for
>> associating arguments with syntactic arguments -- in this instance the x5
>> argument -- which _does not even have the benefits_ of metaphor.  Metaphor
>> at least provides some schema by which you can reduce the otherwise
>> unmanageable proliferation of each predicate having all-different thematic
>> relations, by saying some thematic relations are like others.
>>
>> Lojban affords sme reduction of this burden, but in what I deem a less
>> friendly way.  In Lojban there are still consistencies in the place
>> structures of different predicates: e.g. animal predicates are as a rule
>> "x1 is a such-and-such-animal of species/breed x2", even _cinfo_ 'lion'
>> though there are TTBOMK not multiple species or breeds of lion.  But that's
>> the end of it.  Other x2s don't relate to their predicate in any consistent
>> way at all, there is no abstract nature of "x2-ness" to ease the learner
>> along, whereas there is an abstract nature of "towards-ness" that the
>> various uses of _al_ share in, even if at some remove.
>>
>> Sure, sure, this happens to show partiality to natlangs that work the same
>> way.  But any choice does.  The only way to avoid this is if there are n
>> natlangs that work the same way, which is the case here, I think both
>> because of the lack of any intrinsic meaning to "x4-ness" (natlangs abhor a
>> meaning-vacuum) and because counting is too fragile for nat-grammar.  Is
>> that an advantage?  Depends on your goals, but if learnability is one then
>> I think it returns a solid no.
>
>
> Compare English "I bet you a buck you won't do it". Where are the
> prepositions? You have 4 arguments one after another without tagging any of
> them except via their order.

It's not clear if any English prepositions serve a merely tagging purpose. In the case of the _bet_ example, the argument linking follows from the syntax, almost entirely in a non-lexically-specific way (i.e. independent of _bet_), with phonological word-order being due to, rather than constituting, syntax. _I_ is an unraised subject and therefore the most agentive argument, and _you_ is an 'indirect object' and therefore is a beneficiary--possessor (of a buck being (bet) on you not doing it). If the clause "you won't do it" is replaced by a noun phrase, then it is preceded by an overt preposition _on_; it is common in English that prepositions delete before clauses, so we can suppose that there is a phonologically deleted _on_: "I bet you a buck [on] [that] you won't do it". There is a predicational relationship between _a buck_ and _on_ (i.e. "a buck is on that you won't do it"), with the semantics of this relationship partly specified by the semantics of _on_ (seen also in "depen
d on, rely on, hinge on, contingent on, rest on, stand on"). IMO the predication "X on Y" is a core lexically-specific argument of _bet_, a fact which -- for reasons I won't adumbrate here -- follows non-lexically-specifically from the syntax, which enriches the semantics of "X on Y" to something like "X on Y, which is a bet".

In English, argument linking is (IMO) always fully predictable from syntax.

--And.

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