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CONLANG  November 2014, Week 1

CONLANG November 2014, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Engelang article draft

From:

Patrik Austin <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 4 Nov 2014 15:48:28 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (31 lines)

> [Gleki:] So your paper is fine, I'd just remove explaining one fact with an arbitrary taken hypothesis, removing false statements like "Lojban was
created to test SWH".

OK, I'll fix that for the next version. You can see in the literature list that I'm clearly referring to a Loglan source. 

> [Gleki:] If there are few/many speakers of a given language consider it having this number of speakers due to its internal structure AS THE LAST POSSIBLE explanation.

That could be true in the case of any natural language, but I'm trying to build a case for Loglan/Lojban where this turns out not to be true because it's not based on natural language. I'm referring to Sampson who argues that if Lojban turns out to be more complicated than it should – being apparently simple and based on the best theories of language – then isn't it obvious that there has to be something wrong, not in Lojban, but in the theory?

I think this question is extremely intriguing; it's anything but trivial, and I've found an answer to it.

It's very obvious that predicate logic is suboptimal due to its clumsy design. Frege and Peirce probably didn't have much understanding of language, and they were too focused on an Indo-European model. What's more, they didn't know how to calculate optimality mathematically although it's very easy, I'll show you here briefly:

Suppose we need 60 cases for a language to be functional. These can be expressed with prepositions, postpositions, adverbials, argument places or whatever you choose.

I'm using Lojban's 5 argument places to keep it simple. Assuming the 1st argument is always the subject there will be left 60 x 59 x 58 x 57 = 11.7 million possible ways to arrange _just_one_ series. Correct me if I'm wrong because I honestly don't know anything about mathematics. Anyway you get the point that the syntax of predicate logic is not very clever because using marked cases we only need the 60 prepositions or whatever you choose to use to express case.

> [Gleki:] As for your language I'd explain it as "positional case system i replaced with metaphorical place system like N-paradigm in Loglan".

Thanks for the terminology. I checked it out but it doesn't seem to be the same. I'm building on an ideal language where you derive all parts of speech directly from idea words, including prepositions, and I'm using innovations taken from colloquial Esperanto.

Here's a quote condemning the phenomenon in Esperanto, but of course in RNG there are no such restrictions: http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/rolmontriloj/rolvortetoj/rolvortajhoj.html

"New prepositions?

An idea that new prepositions could be coined has appeared frequently: flanke de la domo → *flank la domo*, rilate al tio → *rilat tio*. The reason is the assumed similarity with apud la domo → apude de la domo etc. - - The whole idea is a mere fantasy. It is absolutely not possible - - the unofficial preposition *far* is however actually made this way."

The prescriptive Esperanto grammar forbids people of doing what RNG is in one part based on: showing that there are as many logically possible cases as there are possible ideas. In RNG, a preposition or case is a function, not a particle.

Thanks also Jeffrey for your comment. Obviously a lot more is needed and will appear in its due time, but there's only so much you can do in one article. I'm mainly trying to find a way to get through to people, and it's likely that using Lojban is not a good way as there are so many ways people have got it all wrong. Anyway I think it's still an exciting article.

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