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CONLANG  November 2014, Week 1

CONLANG November 2014, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Engelang article draft

From:

David Peterson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 4 Nov 2014 23:45:50 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (233 lines)

I'm not one for formal logic, so I'll try to restrict my comments to two
things that I do know a bit about:

(1) I do understand that you want to focus your argument on the suitability
(or lack thereof) of Lojban's (and, by extension, fairly or unfairly,
predicate logic's) structure to language learning, and that's a fine enough
goal, but I simply do not feel you've successfully eradicated all other
possibilities—including those that are much more obvious. Among some of the
more obvious explanations: I'd wager that most users of Lojban never intend
to be fluent in the language, so the fact that they fail to become fluent
should be of no importance whatsoever. Also, when I was an undergraduate at
Berkeley, there was a student-taught class on Esperanto that ran for
several years; never has there been (nor would I expect there to be) a
Lojban class—and I expect that's generally the case the world over. I don't
think these are factors that can easily be ignored. You may have good
reasons for ignoring these common sense objections in the paper, but I
think they ought to be spelled out in the paper itself.

(2) There's a comment that's been made about the metaphorical requirements
of your prepositions that may be getting lost, so I want to fill in the
background. I don't know if you've studied Lakoff at all (if you have,
forgive the presumption), and I also don't know if you intend to radically
alter the design of RNG. Based on what you've presented us, though, the
prepositions you propose are not used the same way each time, and their
secondary uses are metaphorical in nature. The metaphorical entailments,
while common, are language-dependent, and therefore not universal. Assuming
for the moment that two spatial relations can be considered analogous
enough as to be semantically identical (e.g. that a book being on a table
is the same thing as a ball being on a stove), if you move outward, the use
of prepositions in pretty much every language becomes less and less
literal. Consider:

-the cat in the box (the cat is loosely situated in some sort of box)

-the ice cube in the ice cube tray (the ice cube is tightly confined in one
cell of an ice cube tray)

-the man in the picture (a 2D picture is being treated like a container and
the figures depicted in the painting are being treated like objects
contained within the container)

-the actor in the play (the performance or series of performances is being
treated like a container and its actors are treated like contained objects)

-the boy in love (the emotional experience is being treated like a
container which contains the one who feels the emotion)

If all or even two of these is covered by the same preposition, there's at
least some metaphorical extension going on, meaning that the
marker/preposition cannot be defined by one rule. Perhaps you intend to
change RNG crucially, but currently your prepositions fall prey to just
these types of metaphorical extensions. For example, in the same sentence
on page 17 en' is used in two different ways:

(a) en' mateno = in the morning
(b) en' bazaro = in the market

Those two situations are metaphorically similar (and certainly similar
enough in English to warrant the same preposition), but they're not
identical.

I'm not certain how important this second point is to your argument. In
case you were unfamiliar with the precise critique being given, though, I
wanted to fill in the blanks.

-David

On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 10:54 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> 2014-11-04 23:48 GMT+03:00 Patrik Austin <[log in to unmask]>:
>
> > > [Gleki:] So your paper is fine, I'd just remove explaining one fact
> with
> > an arbitrary taken hypothesis, removing false statements like "Lojban was
> > created to test SWH".
> >
> > OK, I'll fix that for the next version. You can see in the literature
> list
> > that I'm clearly referring to a Loglan source.
> >
>
> No, you made a very rude mistake here. You are quoting a Loglan source
> "Smith, Perry, 1991. Loglan 1: a logical language. Fourth edition (review).
> The Journal of Symbolic Logic 56:4. 1494-1495."
>
> However, in the text of your article you are saying "Lojban was created to
> test the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis according to which languages constrain the
> world views of their speakers."
>
> Decide what language you are discussing, don't change quotations.
>
> Secondly, here is what you are saying:
>
> "Speakers are reported to have a tendency to simplify the grammar in live
> conversation to a point where the syntactic structure shares more
> similarity to natural languages than to predicate logic (cf. Powell 2010).
> THIS COULD MEAN THAT ESTABLISHING A LIVING LOGICAL LANGUAGE COMMUNITY IS
> IMPRACTICABLE."
> [capitalization by me]
>
> So you quoted Powell saying that Lojban is evolving but perceive it as if
> Lojban stops being a logical language!
>
> Of course, this could mean it. It can also prove that there is a teapot
> orbiting the Sun somewhere between the Earth and Mars. It can prove almost
> everything.
>
>
> > > [Gleki:] If there are few/many speakers of a given language consider it
> > having this number of speakers due to its internal structure AS THE LAST
> > POSSIBLE explanation.
> >
> > That could be true in the case of any natural language, but I'm trying to
> > build a case for Loglan/Lojban where this turns out not to be true
> because
> > it's not based on natural language.
>
> Except positional case system and monoparsing there is nothing unnatural in
> Lojban. E.g. its lexicon in fact was based on SAE languages.
>
>
> > I'm referring to Sampson who argues that if Lojban turns out to be more
> > complicated than it should
>
>
> Than it should? In what parts of grammar SHOULD it be not complicated?
> Who decides what it should be and what it shouldn't?
>
>
> > – being apparently simple
>
>
> for me it's apparently simple.
>
>
> > and based on the best theories of language – then isn't it obvious that
> > there has to be something wrong, not in Lojban, but in the theory?
> >
> > I think this question is extremely intriguing; it's anything but trivial,
> > and I've found an answer to it.
> >
> > It's very obvious that predicate logic is suboptimal due to its clumsy
> > design. Frege and Peirce probably didn't have much understanding of
> > language, and they were too focused on an Indo-European model.
>
>
> I don't care what they thought. But when I have time I will read them.
>
>
> > What's more, they didn't know how to calculate optimality mathematically
> > although it's very easy, I'll show you here briefly:
> >
> > Suppose we need 60 cases for a language to be functional. These can be
> > expressed with prepositions, postpositions, adverbials, argument places
> or
> > whatever you choose.
> >
> > I'm using Lojban's 5 argument places to keep it simple. Assuming the 1st
> > argument is always the subject there will be left 60 x 59 x 58 x 57 =
> 11.7
> > million possible ways to arrange _just_one_ series. Correct me if I'm
> wrong
> > because I honestly don't know anything about mathematics. Anyway you get
> > the point that the syntax of predicate logic is not very clever because
> > using marked cases we only need the 60 prepositions or whatever you
> choose
> > to use to express case.
> >
>
> Preposition case system, in other words metaphorical tagging of core
> valencies (in FrameNet terminology) doesn't immediately lead to a language
> easier to learn because now you need to learn these metaphorical concepts
> for each frame.
>
> As previously said this may turn into a rather SAE language.
> I haven't ever read Frege or Peirce still I can speak Lojban.
> The lack of idiomatics and good learning resources is the only obstacle I
> can see in Lojban.
>
> >
> > > [Gleki:] As for your language I'd explain it as "positional case system
> > i replaced with metaphorical place system like N-paradigm in Loglan".
> >
> > Thanks for the terminology. I checked it out but it doesn't seem to be
> the
> > same. I'm building on an ideal language where you derive all parts of
> > speech directly from idea words, including prepositions, and I'm using
> > innovations taken from colloquial Esperanto.
> >
> > Here's a quote condemning the phenomenon in Esperanto, but of course in
> > RNG there are no such restrictions:
> >
> http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/rolmontriloj/rolvortetoj/rolvortajhoj.html
> >
> > "New prepositions?
> >
> > An idea that new prepositions could be coined has appeared frequently:
> > flanke de la domo → *flank la domo*, rilate al tio → *rilat tio*. The
> > reason is the assumed similarity with apud la domo → apude de la domo
> etc.
> > - - The whole idea is a mere fantasy. It is absolutely not possible - -
> the
> > unofficial preposition *far* is however actually made this way."
> >
> > The prescriptive Esperanto grammar forbids people of doing what RNG is in
> > one part based on: showing that there are as many logically possible
> cases
> > as there are possible ideas. In RNG, a preposition or case is a function,
> > not a particle.
> >
> > Thanks also Jeffrey for your comment. Obviously a lot more is needed and
> > will appear in its due time, but there's only so much you can do in one
> > article. I'm mainly trying to find a way to get through to people, and
> it's
> > likely that using Lojban is not a good way as there are so many ways
> people
> > have got it all wrong. Anyway I think it's still an exciting article.
> >
>
> I think if you learnt Lojban you would think different.
> I've seen so many wrong claims from people who talk about languages that
> they don't speak.
> In fact it's normal to say such things that only speakers of the discussed
> languages can refute.
>
> However, I'm glad to see that actually all other participants here come to
> almost the same conclusion from reading your article. This shows the high
> level of expertise of conlang-l mailing list community (how did I come to
> this resume? probably using the same method as the author of the article
> :D).
>

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April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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