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CONLANG  November 2014, Week 1

CONLANG November 2014, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Engelang article draft

From:

Patrik Austin <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Nov 2014 03:53:56 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (49 lines)

> [Ray:] the major difficulty here will be defining in an _objective_ way what "easily learnable" means?  Easily learned by whom? 

These are obvious questions to which one article probably cannot give an answer. Actually my supervisor says we should test learnability in a standard way, so I suppose he has an idea. To me it's evident – learning 60 cases is easier than learning 60 cases + 11,703,240 possibilities whether you're a computer, a human or a duck. There's no way you can turn that around.

The objective of the article is to find an answer to the documented learnability problem caused by using predicate logic. RNG itself may be much more difficult to learn for Papuans and Americans alike, but that won't change the mathematics of PL. The role of RNG is to prove that PL is not necessary for unambiguous language i.e. its complications can be avoided in practice. Without RNG the obvious conclusion would have been the one that Okrent already made.

> I won't talk about the self-serving analysis of Lojban,
> as others have already commented upon that. Your claims
> that your grammar, RNG, is an "optimised model with five
> parts of speech" 

Well… I remember saying something like "five parts of speech can create a simpler logical[ly lossless] grammar than two". There's surely an objective way to find out whether that's true or not.

> with "more conventional parts of
> speech" is specious. RNG is no more than a simplified
> form of SAE grammar, much like Esperanto or any
> Euro-auxlang.

Alright, I'll make a change to this part of the text to point out that these "conventional parts of speech" are seen from a Western European perspective. This was also proposed by my supervisor, but I didn't know exactly how to put it. I'm personally based on a Finno-Ugric language, and what I'm doing is I use generally recognised terminology to help people understand, but this terminology is by no means relevant for the functionality of the model.

> [Ray:] "domus" is a 4th declension _feminine_ noun

Thanks! I'll definitely correct that.

> [Ray:] IMO the sentence early on in the paper "The evidence
suggests that predicate logic is a suboptimal model for a
logical language designed for real time use" highlights the
main flaw, i.e. confounding the common colloquial use of
'logical' (e.g. Esperanto is a 'logical' language; Spanish
orthography is more logical than English etc), which has a
fairly broad and loose meaning, with a language based upon
formal mathematical logic.

Right, you say I should prove that RNG is an engelang and not a duck. The way I see it, the question is whether the model is valid or not. It's funny that no one ever questioned this – I assumed it's because everyone got the point, but it may as well be because no one got the point. You should check the D and S rules pp. 11-13 to assess the validity of the model. 

RNG may not be a fully fledged engelang, but if the model is valid, it's a logical system comparable to predicate logic. At this point it seems to be simpler and more expressive, but there may be flaws. Bear in mind that formal logic was developed over decades to solve issues.

So, if RNG is valid, it can be used to create as many engelangs as can be created from predicate logic. What's more, you can engineer your own model for Finnish, English, Russian, Riau etc. to examine the logical mechanics of each language (or to improve automatic translation if you like).

> [Ray:] RNG is surely, as you yourself observed above, "no more than a simplified form of SAE grammar, much like Esperanto or any Euro-auxlang."

Please bear in mind I'm only trying to make it as easy for the speakers of Western European languages as possible because you guys have all the power in the world. Besides I have to write it all in English anyway, so it's good to be practical. Don't you think it would have been more natural for me to use a case language model with free word order, with vocabulary based on Finnish? And that this wouldn't seem likely to give a more optimal model? I want to make it as easy as possible to understand and yet it's hardly easy as pi. Anyway, if that solves the problem, then I should just pick a different model for display.

Jim Henry: I think it was neither Sampson's point nor mine to assess the number of Lojban speakers, rather whether it can work as a communicative tool, and this is then discussed further in the article.

Gleki: It's definitely only a guess, but my prediction is that if you teach a number of kids Lojban – and even if they will never be exposed to any other language – by time they will create their own grammar that is more similar to natural languages (due to whatever undefined laws of language economy). However, we will never know. This is and will remain outside the scope of my study.

David: You made some good points about semantics, but as I mentioned earlier, I'm not working on it at this point. The validity of the model is assessed by its syntactic functionality which is also true about the syntax of predicate logic. Otherwise what you write is quite fascinating, and once the syntax part is finished, I'd like to use RNG for formal semantics. The most obvious solution is to use a different preposition for each different case, but the requirement of optimality means you should however have as few prepositions as possible, which makes the whole thing a very nice challenge.

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