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CONLANG  November 2014, Week 1

CONLANG November 2014, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Engelang article draft

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Nov 2014 19:29:55 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (225 lines)

On 05/11/2014 08:53, Patrik Austin wrote:
>> [Ray:] the major difficulty here will be defining in
>> an _objective_ way what "easily learnable" means?
>> Easily learned by whom?
>
> These are obvious questions to which one article
> probably cannot give an answer. Actually my supervisor
> says we should test learnability in a standard way, so I
> suppose he has an idea. To me it's evident – learning 60
> cases is easier than learning 60 cases + 11,703,240
> possibilities whether you're a computer, a human or a
> duck. There's no way you can turn that around.

The example, with due respect, is _irrelevant_.  No natural
language and AFAIK no artificial language has 60 cases +
11,703,240 possibilities.

Subject line of this thread is "Engelang draft article."
Although you do AFAIK state it explicitly, you seem to imply
that RNG is an engelang (which I maintain it is not).  An
engelang is an artificial language which is designed to
_specific objective criteria_, and engineered to meet those
criteria.

If RNG is indeed an engelang then the objective criteria
must be specified.  The only criterion I saw mentioned on
first reading is "learnability."  But I've just noticed also
"the requirement to make unambiguous sentences."

I guess the second is fairly easily definable; but if
learnability is also a criterion, it needs to be properly
specified.  how otherwise can the language be _engineered_
to meet that criterion.

At the moment "learnability" in this context is unclear.
Or, as I maintain, RNG is not an engelang.

> The objective of the article is to find an answer to the
> documented learnability problem caused by using
> predicate logic.

The title of your paper is "Predicate logic is a suboptimal
basis for real time logical language" which IMO is itself
ambiguous.  What do you mean by "logical" language?

In popular parlance a language is logical if it sticks to
its rules and has few or no exceptions.  But more strictly
"logical" means "of or pertaining to logic."  As you mention
predicate logic then to me it should logically follow that
"logical language" in this context means a language which is
based on formal logic.   If you assert that predicate logic
is a suboptimal basis, then what formal logic are you using
as a better basis for a logical language?  You do not state
it.

Later in your paper you ask:
(i)Does a syntactically unambiguous language have to be
based on predicate logic?
(ii) Would an unambiguous grammar based on natural language
have to be more complicated?
(iii) Can the complication of having word-specific
definitions of argument places be avoided with a
naturalistic approach?

The answer to (i) is possibly not.  But if the language is
to be _logical_ in the sense that we mean when we speak of
loglangs, then it must be based on some formal logic.

The answer to (ii) speaks of a language "based on natural
languages"; i.e. not a loglang.  What you appear to be
talking about is an a_posteriori language with a perfectly
regular grammar.  That is _not_ a logical language in the
strict sense in which it is used in the term loglang.  IMHO
it has no relevance to a logic based engelang whatever.

(ii) was tried by Voksigid, but in the process the language
ceased IMO to be a logic based engelang.

[snip]
> The role of RNG is to prove that PL is not necessary for
> unambiguous language i.e. its complications can be
> avoided in practice.

Is it?  That is not what the title of the paper implies to
me.  You seem to keep changing (or be vague about) your the
objectives of your paper.

.
>
>> I won't talk about the self-serving analysis of
[snip]
This and the quote below were not written by me.  However,
I'll leave the latter uncut.

>> with "more conventional parts of speech" is specious.
>> RNG is no more than a simplified form of SAE grammar,
>> much like Esperanto or any Euro-auxlang.
>
> Alright, I'll make a change to this part of the text to
> point out that these "conventional parts of speech" are
> seen from a Western European perspective. This was also
> proposed by my supervisor, but I didn't know exactly how
> to put it.

Well, yes, they are. One of the criticisms sometimes made of
Esperanto is that it encodes the traditional western
European parts of speech as though they are universals,
which they ain't.

[snip]
>> [Ray:] IMO the sentence early on in the paper "The
[snipped]
>
> Right, you say I should prove that RNG is an engelang
> and not a duck.

Not really.  I just say that RNG is an a_posteriori conlang
which attempts to be regular and unambiguous.  Whether it
will prove to be any better in these two respects than the
many other a_posteriori schematic languages remains to be seen.

> The way I see it, the question is whether the model is
> valid or not. It's funny that no one ever questioned this
> – I assumed it's because everyone got the point, but it
> may as well be because no one got the point. You should
> check the D and S rules pp. 11-13 to assess the validity
> of the model.

I have checked those rules; it does not change my opinion.
I don't understand the first two sentences above.

> RNG may not be a fully fledged engelang, but if the
> model is valid, it's a logical system comparable to
> predicate logic.

On what system of logic is it based?

[snip]

>> [Ray:] RNG is surely, as you yourself observed above,
>> "no more than a simplified form of SAE grammar, much
>> like Esperanto or any Euro-auxlang."
>
> Please bear in mind I'm only trying to make it as easy
> for the speakers of Western European languages as
> possible because you guys have all the power in the
> world.

At the moment - but the growing economies of India & China
may change things.  But let's not get sidetracked.

In other words, RNG is an a_posteriori language based on
western European languages, as I have said all along.  All
you are doing is cutting out irregularities and attempting
to remove ambiguities.

> Besides I have to write it all in English anyway, so it's
> good to be practical.

Irrelevant IMO.
==========================================================

On 05/11/2014 14:10, Patrik Austin wrote:
> Logan: Please don't take it all too literally. Of course
> it's also a matter of semantics as you can quite easily
> see by taking a quick look at the article. What I mean
> is I'm not going to get into the semantics in the detail
> of determining whether something is 'on' the table the
> same way as something is 'on' a beautiful day, 'on' tv,
> 'on' the wall or 'on ' the page. This will not help work
> on the syntax nor will it help people to understand the
> model at this point.

Sorry - if you are listing prepositions, then retaining
prepositions that may be use metaphorically is involving us
with semantics.

> For the matter of ambiguity, the only paradox I'm aware
> of that you need to worry about is 'if A then not A',
> and that should suffice, eg. "The woman hit the man with
> the umbrella – she didn't hit the man WITH the umbrella"
> (nor the man 'with' the umbrella for that matter).

Ambiguous in English and, I guess, many other languages.
But 'twould not ambiguous in Classical Latin where
prepositional phrases may be used only adverbially, and not
adjectivally.

[snip]
>
> Also, there are many versions of PL and there are many
> versions of RNG.

These are *not* the same beats.  There are different ways in
which predicate logic can be displayed visually.  But they
are all attempting to display PL.   By RNG I guess you mean
"reduced natural grammar" which presumably means reduced
grammar of a natural language.  But the reduced grammar of
Tamil, Swahili, Arabic and English will produce quite
different beasts.  Again we are simply not comparing like
with like.

Also I notice that the actual RNG you develop is not even a
reduced form a natural language - it is a reduced form of a
constructed language, i.e. Esperanto!

Sure if the question is whether your RNG or Lojban is easier
to learn, then your RNG is easier.  As for the question of
ambiguity, that remains to be seen.

I repeat what I said before: IMO comparing Lojban and your
RNG is not comparing like with like.


-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".

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January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
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October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 5
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July 2006, Week 3
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
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May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
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August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
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May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
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May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
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August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
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September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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