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CONLANG  November 2014, Week 1

CONLANG November 2014, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Engelang article draft

From:

Patrik Austin <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 7 Nov 2014 05:06:36 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (54 lines)

>>  the reason why PL fails is because it's based on the
>> German/French/English valency.

> [Gleki:] I'm sorry but could you please provide any examples of this?

It's hardly a secret - just look at the way the arguments are taught in every introduction to formal logic; and note that it is not obvious to Finnish speakers, for instance. I don't know exactly who was the first with the idea of using direct and indirect object as the basis of a logical syntax, but here's what Peirce wrote in 1903:

"The irreducibility of the idea of Thirdness appears to me to be evidently proved in the Logic of Relations. Yet Mr. A. B. Kempe, formerly president of the London Mathematical Society - - I must define a few technical terms. In ordinary logical analysis such as is required in the algebraical or other purely formal treatment - - a Reaction, involving two objects which are differently related to one another - - We regard it as a mere affair of English grammar - - The subject nominative denotes that one of the three objects which in the triadic fact merely assumes a non-relative character of activity. The direct object is that object which in the triadic fact receives a character relative to that agent, being the patient of its action, while the indirect object receives a character which can neither exist nor be conceived to exist without the cooperation of the other two." 

etc. etc. (Warning: these 'facts' may now be outdated!)

>> adding a vocabulary - you can use it for logical notation
>> or as syntax for a programming language, or as a human
>> language. So it's a hybrid language.

> [Ray:] A rather ambitious hybrid IMO.

Thanks! If you need one, it's on pp. 11-13. And there's more where that came from.

>> I think you have probably missed the point. It could be
>> because perhaps you thought PL equals logic. That would
>> be parallel to thinking a watch equals time.

> [Ray:] This level of argument does *not* help.  Predicate logic is
one formalism.  I'm quite aware of syllogistic logic.
propositional logic, modal logic, mathematical logic etc.,
etc.   What eludes me is RNG logic.

You're not there yet. You tell me you're aware of sundial time, pendulum clock time and wristwatch time. None of these equals 'time'.

Logic is like time, something invisible that we need to observe. The device to observe logic with is a logical syntax. The syntax does not equal logic, but the syntax has to be 'logical' in order to fit the purpose. True, here the word 'logical' does not have the same meaning as in 'logical expression', something which would depend on how you are using the syntax. To assess whether or not a syntax is "logical" we need to find out whether it's unambiguous so that it can be used to evaluate logical expression. Logicians avoid reasoning using only natural language because an ambiguous syntax can make the conclusions unreliable – an idea which is today appreciated by computer scientists. As formal logic does however rely on natural vocabulary, it provides little guarantee of semantic unambiguity.

>> the reason why PL fails is because it's based on the
>> German/French/English valency.

> [Ray:] Then why have you not considered Fuishiki Okamoto's
language, Babm.  The author certainly claims the language is
built on logical principles and is entirely unambiguous.

Well, Babm is quite complicated in comparison, and at a quick look it seems to be based on predicate syntax. I'm not fool enough to claim that predicate logic fails to be syntactically unambiguous, but I've made calculations to prove that it fails to be optimal as a reference to Occam's razor.

>> RNG is essentially a logical system but -

> [Ray:] But what formal logical model is it based on? Or is it not
really a loglang at all?

It is a case logic syntax as opposed to a predicate logic syntax. A second difference is that it only uses tools found in natural language. Therefore indexing (numbering) and bracketing (other than what may occur in natural languages) are not allowed. You could however add bracketing, as in Lojban, without affecting the complexity of the model. This will add the potential syntactic expressive power beyond human processability. Using the current model you would have to stick to more down to earth strategies.

So, RNG is essentially a logical system rather than a language, although these are often called 'languages'. Anyway, adding a vocabulary you get something what I wouldn't mind anyone calling a loglan or an engelang. I have for instance shown how you can very quickly turn English into a loglan using RNG plus an English dictionary with its subindexes (eg. on1 vs on24).

But if you think a language powered by RNG is not good enough for "the club", then I guess someone would have to think of a different name. Or just call it a duck, but before that prove it ambiguous, or lacking expressive power, using exemplary sentences. 

Computer testing will be part of my PhD. And when/if I find an issue, I'll fix it by checking the rules.

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