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CONLANG  December 2014, Week 1

CONLANG December 2014, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Case logic introduction

From:

Patrik Austin <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 3 Dec 2014 06:21:41 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (64 lines)

> [Gleki:] I'm listening. I just dont have translations of "plus" as a preposition and
as a conjunction. If any usage creates an interrogative I want examples and
translations of answers to those questions.

Thanks Gleki I know you're listening and I appreciate it.

I think this is a good forum to publish your conlanging ideas and to have a discussion with people who are interested in learning more about it. But as some people are not – and you know who you are; I'm not going to say your names because I don't want to start another argument about whether you are or aren't – it's become very clear that you're going to disagree in every case – PLEASE stay away. You're driving me nuts. SUM_UP(off, you, bog)

Gleki, I need to make it clear first that we're operating on the level of an artificial language, so when you compare it with natural languages, sometimes it will be grammatical and sometimes not depending on the language. This is also true about formalisations, because sometimes you can formalise it in predicate logic, sometimes you can't. The difference with my context-free grammar as opposed to natural languages is however that whatever is true in one place should be true universally in the language (unless there's an issue).

In any case we'll have to use English for this conversation. If I was any better with Russian, I'd definitely use it :) 

Here's a quote from my Macmillan dictionary:

"Plus can be used in the following ways:

- as a PREPOSITION (followed by a noun or a number): "Two plus seven is nine." "It costs £11.99, plus £1.50 for postage and packaging." "The price includes 7 nights' hotel accommodation plus car hire."

- as a CONJUNCTION: "Cleaning the old engines would be a difficult task, plus it wouldn't be worth the effort."

But I'll pick an easier sentence for an interrogative translation so we can focus on the topic.

PREP:
John plus' Mary iras al' butiko
(John or-PREP Mary goes to the shop)

--> John plus' Mary kio-ece(?) iras al' butiko
(John or-PREP Mary in-which-binary-state-of-truth goes to the shop?)
- Yes/No.

The reason the yes/no answer is unambiguous with the preposition is actually because there's only one statement. John or Mary form the subject jointly. Using an agglutinative model it could be expressed as John-plus'-Mary but there are of course many possible solutions.

And you can change the case marker to aux' (or), kaj' (and), sur' (on) or whatever you like.

I might actually keep the origianl English sentence with plus as a conjunction:

CONJ: Would cleaning the old engines be a difficult task plus wouldn't it be not worth the effort?
(pura-igi-ando na' lao nova masxino-jo kio-ece(?) use-estas facila-mala tasko plus-ke' kio-ece(?) zio use-estas nee inda je' lao klopodo.)

[I'm using zio for 'that' but with reference to a state of affairs, or the previous statement.]

If you reject or confirm all this by saying yes/no, we won't be 100 % sure which statement or statements you're referring to:

- the task is difficult
- it's not worth the effort

Could be both, either or none.

Note that this is different from the issue of yes/no being possibly ambiguous when referring to negation:

"My mum is NOT a slut". 
- Yes. (<-- confirm what?)
- No. (<-- reject what?)

This is solved in many languages with different ways, and I'd probably be prone to view it as a lexical issue (i.e. how to define the word 'yes'). But as said, that's a different issue from the PREP vs. CONJ question.

What could be interesting is that you can also use plus-PREP and plus-CONJ with numbers:
	
7 plus-PREP 3 equals 10
vs.
7 plus-CONJ 3 minus-PREP 1 equals 2 equals 9

As you see the model is not optimised for mathematics, but it can be an interesting way to look at math syntax. You could obviously optimise it for math, and that might possibly not turn out to be useless if you have a plan, but normally I'm focusing on language.

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