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CONLANG  December 2014, Week 1

CONLANG December 2014, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Case logic introduction

From:

Patrik Austin <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 4 Dec 2014 05:05:25 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (63 lines)

Hi Siva, thanks for participating!

> many disagreements have at their source a mismatch of definitions. Understanding what exactly you mean by terms such as “preposition” and “conjunction” would clear things up greatly.

Absolutely. Also, it's important to bear in mind that though I'm using English examples, we're talking about an artificial language all the time, right? The terms are defined in the draft article, most essentially:

"S7. Each preposition (D5) refers to the whole following prepositional phrase (i.e. until the noun); kun' tio granda hundo 'with that big dog'."

and 

"S10. The preposition ke' refers to the next predicate verb as a complement to the previous predicate verb (a conjunction, cf. D5; overruling S7); Nio venas al' hejmo post'-ke' nio kuras en' arbaro 'We will come home after we run in a forest'."

The exact definition depends on a particular model (I'm only saying this because I had previously posted another model with a proper conjunction).  Whether any of the definitions is true or not depends 100 % on whether the grammar will hold or collapse when tested. The terms 'preposition' and 'conjunction' are basically just words, but what these functions look like are what are often known as prepositions and conjunctions, so I've been using those terms as reference (in parenthesis as they appear).

Looking from the point of case logic syntax, they're both case markers. They're basically the same word, but as the display model is made relatively similar to English, it has to be indicated that the one function marks the verb and the other marks a noun phrase. 

When you tag the case markers with ' (prep.) and –ke' (conj.), you create two different functions for words such as kaj (and), kun (with) and plus (plus) which are otherwise synonymous.

To illustrate, it's well-documented that the word 'and' is ambiguous (e.g. http://library.mpib-berlin.mpg.de/ft/rh/RH_Conjunction_2008.pdf). 

One common English example is "The school is looking for teachers of French, German and Japanese." – Is that respectively, or do they have to teach all three languages each? And, similarly: "John and Mary came late to class." – Did they come late together, or is it more generally true that John – as well as Mary – came late? It could have been a different day, it could have been a different class etc.

Now, it's been often said that my argumentation is based on using ungrammatical sentences, and it's true that I'm a learner. To be quite honest, most of the points that have been deemed unacceptable by others were Googled and/or from reputable sources. But to make sure that what I say is true in at least one natural language, here are the same expressions in Finnish with a translation in RNG:

Koulu etsii ranskan, saksan ja japanin opettajia. (Pitääkö opettaa joko ranskaa, saksaa tai japania vai kaikkia?)
lernejo sercxas na' franca-pria kaj-? germana-pria kaj-? japana-pria instrui-isto-jo

Jussi ja Marja tulivat myöhässä tunnille. (Tulivatko he yhdessä vai molemmat?)
John kaj-? Mary ise-venas en' tardo al' klaso

As you see, I've left the RNG case markers untagged (-?) to expose the underlying ambiguity. I think that maybe you could look at the sentences and figure out how the meanings vary as you toggle between ' (prep.) and –ke' (conj.)? I know I'm taking a long way around, but I'll come to my answer briefly below.

Then, I'd like you to toggle between kaj-?, (and), plus-? (plus) and kun-? (with). If you manage to do this, you will see that kaj and kun ('and' and 'with') are synonymous, and the difference is made not by the word semantics, but the function tag. I'm going to have to leave it to you because the truth is that this is difficult. I think that if you spend a week thinking about it and figure it out, you'll have done it much more quickly than myself. If you don't, the only way around is for you to take my word for it. 

> I’m not sure how the Macmillan dictionary defines “preposition”, but the “prepositional” usages you’ve cited don’t fit my understanding of what a preposition is.

You shouldn't say you don't know how Macmillan defines preposition as it was written: "as a preposition (followed by a noun or a number)", and you'll find a full definition by looking it up.

I think the wisest thing is not to argue against Macmillan to prove anyone wrong, because then what you're basically doing is proving Macmillan wrong despite knowing it's based on years of work and centuries of language research. I mean, everybody knows I'm mistaken because experts say so. But if experts are mistaken, does that mean I'm right after all? Or wrong as I agree with experts? It gets a little confusing.

> the sentence would mean something like “Two is equal to nine, once you’ve added seven to it”, which is unnatural to say the least.

I agree, it can feel unnatural for several reasons, the most obvious being that you're used to analysing it differently, but you know that there are several different schools of structure analysis. Please remember that we're examining logic and perhaps artificial intelligence. The question is: when you enter it to a computer, will it give you the correct result? I think the way you explained the meaning above is perfect.

> sentence would entail “It costs £11.99”, which is wrong.

True, it entails it costs £11.99. But it's also true that it also entails "plus 1.50". When you add these you get the total price with postage and packaging.

> In the third example, “7 nights’ hotel accommodation plus car hire” would refer to the hotel accommodation (to which, incidentally, car hire has been added); this is surely not the intended meaning.

If we think of these in terms of numbers, a calculator won't understand what you mean by incidental. Similarly, artificial intelligence won't be able to understand your point because the grammar lacks an incidental mode. You could add it, but it's not included by default. (You could however express it with an adverbial.)

> I would thus suggest that the distinction you are drawing is in fact not between prepositions and conjunctions at all, but between *NP conjunctions* and *clause conjunctions*.

You're right in saying that the prepositional phrases may refer to an NP, and this is because in the particular model the definition is: "S9. Each adverbial (cf. prepositional phrase) refers to the previous non-adverbial constituent." (An FWO model which Gleki was probably looking for would have PP's of this type exclusively referring to the verb.)

So, I think you're actually getting very close to my meaning by calling both functions conjunctions; I myself have been prone to call both functions prepositions, but only because they are case markers in frontal position. Anyway, call them both prepositions, call them both conjunctions - whichever definition we use, we should come to the same conclusion. So if this is the way to make progress, I suggest we adopt the term "NP conjunction" for what used to be preposition.

But if we do, will you agree that case markers are conjunctions even when they're used as suffixes? For instance:

Jussi ja Marja tulivat tunnille.
(John and Mary came class-to-NPCONJ.)

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