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CONLANG  December 2014, Week 2

CONLANG December 2014, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Putting unused natlang words to work

From:

Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 13 Dec 2014 19:12:46 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (132 lines)

Well, I guess you put me in MY place!!! (hehe)

You make some excellent points. Along the same lines, the newspaper
cryptogram puzzles have the rule that a given ciphertext letter never
stands for the same plaintext letter. That is a serious flaw which makes
the ciphers much easier to crack. (e.g. in ordinary cryptograms a
single-letter word must be either "a" or "I", and if the ciphertext word is
"A" then the plaintext word must be "I" and it follows that every "A" in
the cryptogram must be a plaintext "I".)

Also, I always seem to end up using open syllables, so the English word
"make", for example, would end up being the two-syllable conlang word
"MAH-kay".

As for my annual anti-mouth-noise rant, I don't think that's due for 6 or 8
months yet. ;-) And besides, I'm starting to (gasp!) develop a bit interest
in "mouth noises". Not to the point of obsessing over them like some
conlangers do, but at least to the extent that they should be a part of the
conlang design process. I listen to spoken Swahili (my very favorite
sounding language) and I wonder how I could make my conlang sound that
beautiful. Obviously, the answer lies in the study of mouth noises.

But to discuss the "sound of English", for example, is just talking
nonsense. There is no "sound of English". English in Sydney, Edinburgh,
Boston, San Antonio, Montreal, New Orleans, and Mumbai have seven
distinctly different sounds, yet are all English. My usual cop-out,
conlang-wise, is that my conlang is widely enough spoken throughout the
world that so many different dialects exist resulting in the simple fact
that there is no right or wrong way to pronounce a given word, leading, in
turn, to my oft-repeated golden rule of conlang pronunciation: "Close
enough is good enough."

--gary

On Sat, Dec 13, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 8 Dec 2014 11:59:34 -0800, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >Pick some short English word, say "stop" and apply everything after the
> >initial consonants ("-op") to all the other initial clusters. Some of the
> >resulting words will be valid English words, and some will not. E.g. using
> >"-op":
> [...]
> >Now remove all those that are valid English words,
>
> No, absolutely don't!  Unless your use case is adding words *to English*
> that shouldn't conflict with existing ones, don't!  If you want to make a
> conlang that's merely English-like (as you suggest:)
>
> >and what's left are
> >"unused English words" that you could use in a lexicon for an conlang that
> >had English-like phonology and orthography.
>
> then omitting all words that happen to exist in English would leave an
> unmissable elephant-in-the-room trace as to what you had done.  You'd be
> English-like in a black-and-white sense but all the frequencies would be
> skewed; your words would be living on the infertile peripheral regions of
> English phonotactic space, having to work around the core of forms using
> sounds frequent in English which is most already taken.  Granted, this ìs
> where e.g. sci-fi authors who haven't thought it through tend to end up --
> see Lesson Two of http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/lingo.html#2 -- but
> you shouldn't intentionally land yourself on that list without good
> reason...
>
> An example of a good conlang with English-like phonology and romanisation
> is Mark Rosenfelder's Flaidish:
>   http://zompist.com/flaidish.htm#Good
> | Indeed, many Flaidish words look and sound exactly like English words,
> | though the meanings are different -- e.g. _back, boor, dell, felt, jeer,
> | kiss, lad, met, morn, moss, much, neck, sam, seer, tell, test._
> (Flaidish is also a good example of a successful rehabilitating of
> juvenilia now that one knows better.  I'm not sure I'd have the stomach for
> the flaids _themselves_ in that sense, but lemme stay on topic.)
>
> An example of a bad conlang... no.  An example not to be imitated unless
> you're going for its effect, of a conlang with Cebuano-like phonology and
> romanisation, is Eskayan
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskayan_language
> which does systematically avoid copying any Cebuano word-form.  That is
> understandable for a language used alongside Cebuano and invented by a
> rebel group to set itself apart from the mainstream.  But it would make no
> sense if the two were supposed to exist on entirely different continents /
> planets / timelines / what have you.
>
> >At any rate, this has the advantage of coining the types of words that
> have
> >arisen in natlangs after centuries of use, and are more likely to be
> easily
> >pronounceable than would be random collections of consonants and vowels.
> >
> >Some of the unused words might be unpleasant-sounding ("blall", "sprore",
> >...), but those will be in the minority.
> [...]
> >Anyway, it seems like a good way to generate new words that still have a
> >natlang feel to them.
>
> I think that, with this method, you've basically discovered a part of
> _phonotactics_, i.e. the study of just which sequences of phonemes make
> allowable words, because not all of them do.  For writers on language who
> aren't aware that phonotactics is a phenomenon, aspects of it sometimes
> percolate up to their awareness anyway, and then they tend to come out as
> assertions about what is "easily pronounceable", or how their language
> avoids "unpleasant-sounding" words.
>
> In languages like English and Spanish, there are scarcely any constraints
> against certain consonants _preceding_ certain vowels; so if you cut two
> valid words at a consonant-vowel boundary and reassemble them as you've
> done here, the result will also follow the phonotactic rules.  In languages
> like, er, let's say Classical Mongolian, there were such restrictions (e.g.
> [k g] could precede [e] but not [a], whereas [q R] could precede [a] but
> not [e]), which means that this cut-and-paste procedure could go wrong.
> Even in English there are some restrictions spanning this boundary, like
> that a syllable cannot have two identical liquids (/r/ or /l/) in it -- at
> least I was taught this rule in undergrad linguistic lectures, though I
> thought of exceptions right away -- and indeed, this restriction seems to
> be exactly the one that's making "blall" and "sprore" sound fishy to you.
>
> Given that you don't care about mouth noises, I think my suggestion for
> you would be to make some languages that aren't spoken!  Try some different
> media!  Sign languages, written-only languages, musical languages,
> languages in the medium of ikebana, whatever.  That would provide an
> interesting exercise in thinking about which shapes of words are valid
> ones, and you could have a grapple with these topics without having to
> undergo the annoyance of splitting the hairs of high-mid vs. low-mid vowels
> or retroflex vs. palatoalveolar fricatives or any of that.
> (If you get to have annual rants against mouth noises, I get to have
> annual rants against throwing out the interesting parts of language you are
> throwing out with the bathwater of mouth noises. :-p )
>
> Alex
>

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December 1998, Week 5
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