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AUXLANG  December 2014, Week 4

AUXLANG December 2014, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Alice's Adventures in Wonderland in the International Phonetic Alphabet published by Evertype

From:

Scott Raney <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 24 Dec 2014 09:24:06 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (69 lines)

On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 1:32 AM, Risto Kupsala <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> In any case the change from the traditional spelling to the reformed
> spelling would be gradual and both systems would co-exist for decades. So
> the old spelling would continue to be taught in schools, but only in the
> upper grades and only for reading historical texts.

Another point on this, relating to Chinese: We were at the Sun Yat-Sen
museum in Taiwan and they had a lot of his letters on display, most
written in the early 1900s: My wife could recognize almost all the
characters but in many cases had no idea what the text was about.
There's more to understanding "historical texts" than just being able
to read the characters, a problem that's apparently much worse with
Chinese than English even.  Again, I don't see a problem (or a need)
here: Modern Chinese kids don't need to be able to read Sun Yat-Sen in
the original, a translation is fine as long as the original text is
preserved and *someone* (or even some machine) has the ability to
translate it.

>>    I've
>> been told that it's relatively hard for mainland Chinese to read
>> traditional script, but Taiwanese have much less trouble going the
>> other way.  But IMHO that was an example of amateur social engineers
>> putting lipstick on a pig.
>
>
> Traditional Chinese script was designed for scribes, not for the masses.
> Simplified script was instrumental in increasing the literacy rate in
> mainland China, so in that sense it was a successful reform.

Meh, I think you're confusing correlation with causation.  I leaned
both (2 years of college Chinese) and though I suppose *technically*
it was easier to learn to write the simplified, it may have been
harder to learn to read it (by removing a lot of the squiggles
inter-character confusion goes up).  The literacy rate is almost
completely unrelated to this change and IMHO is primarily or maybe
even solely due to better and more schools rather than anything to do
with the character sets.

>>    There was an even more ambitious project,
>> trying to teach kids pinyin (an alphabetic system) instead of
>> characters at all, but that failed even worse than our own "whole
>> language" experiments did.
>
>
> In fact it didn't fail. Pinyin is still taught in schools in China as a way
> to teach correct pronunciation of Mandarin. It is also used in dictionaries
> in China for the alphabetic ordering. (Normally there is also character
> index.) Pinyin is also the standard method to input Chinese characters to
> computers. So practically everybody uses Pinyin in China as a helping
> script.

Right, and I agree that it is a big improvement over Zhuyin Fuhao (aka
bopomofo) as a phonetic alphabet, but you misunderstand my point: They
actually tried to teach pinyin *instead* of the characters, not just
as a pronunciation guide.  Unfortunately Chinese is so heavily
overloaded with homophones that this proved to be unworkable.  As I've
said before, I hear the effects of this all the time in spoken Chinese
where they repeat themselves and call-out ambiguous words (me being
more sensitive to the interruptions in the flow of the conversation
than native/fluent speakers are because I have to struggle so hard to
follow it).  It's just a poorly-designed language from just about
every perspective.  Which is not to say that western languages are all
that great either: We auxlangers can certainly do better ;-)
  Regards,
    Scott

> --Risto

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December 2000, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 1

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