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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  February 2015, Week 1

CONLANG February 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Reversed polarity

From:

Adam Walker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 5 Feb 2015 17:45:46 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (81 lines)

It's not what you were asking for, but Gravgaln has a split-S system where
voluntary experiencers are marked as agents and involuntary experiencers
are marked as patients.  There isn't "suject" or "object" marking as such.

Adam

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Jeffrey Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I have been thinking about the original post, and how different languages
> handle "events of experiencing" differently, by shoving them into an
> agent/patient grammatical template (subject/object, nominative/accusative
> (possibly dative), absolutive/ergative). Are there any languages (natlangs
> or conlangs) that mark nouns differently for these roles? To be precise, a
> four-way split (active subject / passive object / experiencer /
> "experiencee") for noun markings (one of which could be null)?
> Jeffrey
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 9:56 AM, Vítor De Araújo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > On 04/02/2015 16:38 +0000, David McCann <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, 3 Feb 2015 22:16:30 -0200
> > > Vítor De Araújo              <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Si *gustares de* acorrerme, tuyo soy" [If it be of your liking to
> > > > {come to my help?}, I am yours]
> > > >
> > > > From the last example it seems that the meaning of this "gustar" is
> > > > not quite the same as Portuguese "gostar" or English "to like"; "se
> > > > gostares de acudir-me" would be incorrect, or at least very weird,
> > > > in Portuguese, where something like "se for do teu gosto" ("if it
> > > > be of your liking") or "se te aprouver" would be more normal. A
> > > > Portuguese verb with similar meaning and syntax might be
> > > > "folgar" (as in "folgo muito d'enganar[1]"); though this usage
> > > > seems pretty archaic, "se folgares de acudir-me" seems to me to
> > > > match "si gustares de acorrerme" quite nicely in both syntax and
> > > > meaning.
> > > >
> > >
> > > In the Spanish "gustares de acorrerme" and the Portuguese "eu gosto de
> > > chocolate", the "de" serves two rather different purposes.
> > >
> > > In the Spanish, it is subordinating one verb to another. Unlike the
> > > simple French contrast of "de" and "à", Spanish is notorious for its
> > > variety of prepositions used before the infinitive. Reflexive verbs
> > > take "a", but we have tratar de, insistir en, optar por, soñar con,
> > > and intentar with no preposition!
> >
> > FWIW, all of these have equivalents in Portuguese (tratar de, insistir
> > em, optar por, sonhar com/em, tentar).
> >
> > Likewise, in Portuguese one can use "gostar" with verbs too: "eu gosto
> > de cantar" (I like to sing), and "no gusto de sujetarme" translates
> > directly as "não gosto de sujeitar-me".
> >
> > I think "se gostares de acudir-me" sounds strange not because it
> > is ungrammatical, but because it seems the meaning is wrong (it sounds
> > like "if you like to come to my help", i.e., "if coming to my help is
> > something you like to do", or, given the future tense, "if you come to
> > my help and you turn out to like it").
> >
> > And in "gusto mucho destas cosas de amores", 'de' is used with a noun
> > phrase much like in Portuguese.
> >
> > > In the Portuguese, gostar is an intransitive verb and so "chocolate"
> > > cannot be a simple object.
> >
> > > ************************
> > >
> > > Returning to the question of marking the arguments of the verb, I've
> > > remembered the Caucasian language Tabassaran has rather nice case
> > > marking:
> > > beat: subject ergative, object absolutive
> > > hit: subject ergative, object dative
> > > look at: subject absolutive, object dative
> > > see: subject dative, ibject absolutive
> >
>

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