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CONLANG  March 2015, Week 3

CONLANG March 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Epiphanies at 3am and the effect they have on conlanging....

From:

Sylvia Sotomayor <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 21 Mar 2015 07:27:03 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (144 lines)

Thank you to both of you for finding ways to make my iffy terminology work. :-)

And yes, the verbs are all imperfect, so time is part of the paradigm
already. I will think on what both of you have said.

I think my next task is to take another look at the two short texts
that I have already translated (before the epiphany) and see what may
or may not have changed.

That might take a little time, though, so in the meantime any comments
are welcome.
-S

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Jeffrey Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi, Sylvia,
> This sound really interesting, and I am not certain to what degree you
> actually need to totally reorganize your verb structure.
> Your dimensional foundation might work better if you take time into account
> explicitly.
> So, a rock that does nothing, except just exist, still has a single
> dimension, namely time.
> Anything that is proceeding along a path, whether straight or curved, is 2
> dimensional.
> Other motion, growth, expansion, or randomly fluttering around like a
> startled moth, would be 3+ dimensional.
> Possibly, you could have 0-dimensional verbs for events that take zero
> time. I am thinking here about a flash of lightning as the archetype. (Yes,
> lightning does take a finite amount of time, but within the language, if
> Sylvia wished, there could be a class of instantaneous verbs. And they
> could be metaphorical: eat (takes time) vs gulp (instantaneous).)
> And then you can mark these for evidentiality or volitionality as you wish.
> The cat ran from A to B vs The cat was thrown from A to B.
> Negative verbs could take the same dimensionality as their positive
> counterparts. Why? Because it's just simpler that way. So, a cat that
> didn't run from A to B would still take a 2-dimensional verb, even though
> it was just licking its paws, lazy beast.
> Jeffrey
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Sylvia Sotomayor <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> So, this morning at 3am or so I had an epiphany, and it requires
>> re-doing or maybe just re-organizing my verbs and my nouns.
>>
>> See, the verbs in the new language (currently called sodemadu) all
>> describe paths, and motion along said path. I had previously divided
>> them into verbs of motion, which fit that description very well
>> (except maybe evi and ɛmɛmɛ), and verbs of stance, which function more
>> like copulas and are differentiated by the shape of the subject. But
>> really, what is going on is that the verbs group by the dimensionality
>> of the path.
>>
>> By dimensionality I mean the grade-school idea of 1 dimension is a
>> dot, 2 dimensions are a line, and 3 dimensions are a plane. So the
>> verbs of stance become are describing a 1-dimensional path, so to
>> speak. The verbs of motion are (most of them) describing a
>> 2-dimensional path, motion along a line. (The line does not have to be
>> straight, which kinda introduces the third dimension, but in the sense
>> that topologically a donut is the same as a coffee mug, a path that
>> isn't straight can be considered straight and therefore 2-dimensional
>> for the purposes of these verbs.) The two verbs that don't fit are evi
>> and ɛmɛmɛ, which really describe a 3-dimensional path. evi means to
>> move outwards in all directions or to expand, and ɛmɛmɛ is its
>> opposite. It might help to think of these as image schemas rather than
>> as anything literally real.
>>
>> So, there we go, that's what the verbs really are doing. Which means I
>> need to re-think them.
>>
>> Currently, I have 3 verbs of stance--one for points, one for items
>> with a strong horizontal dimension, and one for items with a strong
>> vertical dimension. I also have a negative verb that negates all
>> three. It occurs to me that with this new scheme, all I really need is
>> the one for points, as it is describing a path that is a point. The
>> negative might be considered a 0-dimensional verb if you like. :-)
>>
>> Where this gets interesting is with the remaining 2D verbs. Tɨŋi would
>> be the prototypical 2D verb. But what about the rest of them? Ono is
>> essentially the opposite of tɨŋi in that there is still a straight
>> path but going in the opposite direction. On the other hand, maybe
>> anything that I would use ono for can be done with tɨŋi or ɛmɛmɛ. Pɛsi
>> is tɨŋi with no destination because the assumed destination is simply
>> "away". Maybe pɛsi is a negative 2D verb? Duso involves moving back
>> and forth, or going around and coming back to the beginning. Again,
>> not sure what to do with this. Aŋi and kiɬi, though, both explicitly
>> involve a 2D path through a 3D space. That is, aŋi differs from tɨŋi
>> in that the destination is the journey rather than the end-point of
>> the journey. With kiɬi, the destination is something that has been
>> passed by or missed. Does that make aŋi and kiɬi 2.5-dimensional?
>>
>> One interesting twist to all of this is that I mark evidentiality on
>> the verb. For some reason, cultures that have grammatical
>> evidentiality prefer statements that convey eyewitnessed knowledge to
>> statements that don't. So, rather than saying "He didn't go to the
>> store." (which is an inference, really, after all how do you know
>> where all he didn't go?) they prefer to say "He is not at the store."
>> (if the speaker is in the store). So that means that the preferred
>> negative of a 2D verb is probably a 1D (or zero-D) negative.
>>
>> Anyway, as I said, I need to re-think things.
>>
>> Regarding nouns, my noun classes sort of fall into the group of things
>> that don't move on their own (most inanimates), the things that move
>> linearly (most animates), and the things that expand, contract, or are
>> emitted (light, sound, possibly the ocean with its tides, ideas, ???).
>> This roughly corresponds to existing class iii, class i & ii together,
>> and class iv. Currently I have a way of conveying class iii as
>> linearly motile, and class i and ii as non-motile, but what about that
>> third dimension? Do I use a different form for a rock that is
>> stationary, a rock that is moving as a projectile (or seemingly on its
>> own like the ones in Death Valley), and a rock that is
>> growing/expanding (or exploding?). Maybe this 3-way difference would
>> be better marked on an animate noun - one that is still, one in
>> motion, and one that is growing. On the other hand, the difference
>> between moving in 2D and in 3D can be conveyed by the verb, so maybe
>> it doesn't need to be marked. Something to think about anyway.
>>
>> Another thing I like to have in my languages is some way to convey
>> volitionality. It occurs to me that the evidential system can already
>> do this: it is common in evidential languages to use a non-eyewitness
>> evidential for things the subject did non-volitionally. So, "I|He
>> jumped down" would use the eyewitness evidential, but "I|He fell down"
>> might use an inferred (it seemed to me) or reported (I'm told)
>> evidential. (And both of those would use the same 2D verb conveying a
>> linear path in a downward direction.)
>>
>> And lets not get started on dimensionality above 3D.
>>
>> -S
>>
>> --
>> Sylvia Sotomayor
>>
>> The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
>>



-- 
Sylvia Sotomayor

The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.

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December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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