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CONLANG  June 2015, Week 1

CONLANG June 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Naturalistic Grammars

From:

David Peterson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 6 Jun 2015 03:34:27 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (98 lines)

I think a general problem I’m sensing is the status of conlanging—that is, whether it’s an art or not. If it is, it probably can’t be quantified; if it isn’t, maybe it can. I don’t think we (and by “we” I mean humanity) know enough about language and its origins yet to make that determination. Not a bad idea to try, though, I suppose. It’s an interesting thought experiment, like coming up with an algorithm to determine the objective quality of a work of fiction.

> On Jun 4, 2015, at 12:32 PM, Jeffrey Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> David P: The process is not the test. The test of a lightbulb is to screw
> it into the socket, turn on the current, and see if it glows. The
> manufacturing process does not figure. A sound manufacturing process may
> indeed produce high quality lightbulbs, but the two things are
> intrinsically different.

Speaking of intrinsically different, so is creating a lightbulb and creating a conlang. One is defined by its functionality; the other is not—or need not be. I gather that what you’re trying to do is create this “test” similar to the one with the lightbulb, but the test cannot exist for an artistic language. It’s a bit like coming up with a human test (i.e. how likely a thing is to be a real human based on input) and running the characters in a novel through the test in order to determine how realistic the novel is.

> In like manner, following sound diachronic
> processes in the creation of a conlang may produce naturalistic languages,
> but it’s not the test. There may well be other processes which can produce
> naturalistic conlangs equally well, or perhaps more efficiently; and doing
> dichronism right is difficult, and requires extensive linguistic knowledge.

I’m not certain the latter is true (and, of course, just because something’s difficult doesn’t mean it isn’t worth doing or shouldn’t be a part of the process). And I wouldn’t call it a test: I’d call it an argument. Just like a novel is, in a way, an argument for its own existence (i.e. as a reader, do you accept the story? Does it obey the rules it set for itself? Whether it does or doesn’t, does it produce the desired effect? If it was trying to be tragic, was it tragic? If it was trying to be funny, was it funny? Whatever one’s answer is, the answer will be personal, and thus subjective. While you can measure audience response and guess whether a person who finds X and Y funny will also find Z funny, it’s still a guess), so is an artistic conlang an argument for its own existence—and that includes naturalistic conlangs.

With naturalistic conlanging in particular, though, the conlang is an argument for its evolutionary process. It’s irrelevant whether feature X in a conlang exists in a natlang. The test is for someone else to look at how feature X was evolved in the conlang and for them to decide for themselves how likely it is. Although this judgment will definitely be informed by the viewer’s linguistic knowledge, it will still ultimately be subjective. Perhaps as a viewer you’ll use your schema (“Has it ever happened? If it has, it’s good; if it hasn’t, it’s bad”), but others need not do so. Some may decide, very unscientifically, that it makes sense to them and they like it. The only way to get a sense of it on the whole is if there were something like a Rotten Tomatoes for conlanging that aggregated and analyzed all such judgments. I don’t think we’re there yet, though. (Honestly, I doubt we ever will be.)

> Moreover, phonological diachronism is much more studied and developed than
> grammatical dichronism. If the goal is a naturalistic conlang grammar, then
> the diachronic method of construction may be of little help.

Definitely not as well studied, but there’s some really good material out there. I feel pretty good when it comes to evolving verbal systems, case systems, adpositions, adjectival systems (if they exist), adverbials (if they exist), etc. It may not be as old hat as sound changes, but there’s enough there for a conlanger to do quite a bit without relying solely on their intuition.

> Please note
> I’m not saying that what you do when you create a conlang is wrong, merely
> that you should not be dogmatic in insisting that it is the only way to
> achieve naturalism. I don’t have a suggestion for an alternative procedure,
> however.

A simpler way of stating the process is this: If natural languages came about through evolution, the best way to produce a naturalistic conlang is to emulate that process. I stand by that. It may not be the fastest way—indeed, there are probably faster ways that would produce something that’s “good enough”, but “good enough” is not best.

And certainly, there are always “hacks”. David Njenfalgar’s LCC4 presentation comes to mind. The results there end up mimicking the synchronic look and feel of natural languages pretty well!

> I still believe the true test is the aesthetic sense that comes
> into play upon the usage of the language by the author or others. This is,
> admittedly, of little help as advice to aspiring conlangers.

It may not be helpful, but it is the truth. It’s like with writing. You can read books on how to structure a novel, how emulate a style, how to develop characters, how to spice up dialogue, etc. There’s tons of advice out there. It doesn’t change the fact that the only way to determine if something is “good” or not is for someone to read it and tell you what they think—and the judgment is, of necessity, subjective.

This is also a difficult point to evaluate since there’s two issues here: How much a person likes a conlang and how naturalistic it is. Those two aren’t necessarily related, but you might have conflated them in this last quote, possibly…? For example, there’s no question that the grammars of Esperanto and Toki Pona are not naturalistic, but it is also fairly uncontroversial to say Esperanto’s grammar is more naturalistic than Toki Pona’s. That doesn’t prevent someone from liking Toki Pona more, and getting a better aesthetic sense from using it. If you ask that person which one’s more naturalistic, they may very well say Toki Pona, if they don’t use the same definition of naturalistic we do. I doubt having an objective metric that showed the contrary to be true would do much to sway such a person. (There are a lot of hypotheticals in there, but hopefully you can follow the idea. It wouldn’t be hard to find someone who likes Toki Pona better than Esperanto and test it out.)

> On Jun 3, 2015, at 4:09 PM, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> I've stated my concept of _strong naturalism_ around here before, as the version of naturalism I aspire to, though surely don't attain.  The strong-naturalist strives to make conlangs whose statistics, on every feature and combination of features, follow the distribution of natural languages, given a large enough sample (this bit is necessarily a bit nebulous, e.g. we might have to observe the world for a million years to get enough data).


Just a note: I have no issues with the theory you have here, but I do object to you referring to it as “strong naturalism”. The designation doesn’t even seem relevant. I’d call it “statistical naturalism” or “crosslinguistically average conlanging”. But strong, hardly. Strong naturalism would be creating a system and evolving it in real time (or simulated real time), emulating every single speaker of the language and their entire life cycle, emulating the civilization that uses the language, emulating its neighbors, emulating the planet the language is spoken on, etc. We’d also need to know precisely how language came into being so we wouldn’t be starting with an arbitrary system that is, itself, likely already the produce of thousands of years of human evolution. I don’t think it’d necessarily need to go as far as creating the entire universe, but it would need to accurately simulate the entire history of a language, in as much detail as is linguistically relevant. That’s strong naturalism.

> On Jun 4, 2015, at 1:10 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> Off the top of my head, I'd suggest a test of naturalism might be the extent to which someone who doesn't know whether it's a conlang or not will bet that it is. A kind of conlang analogue of the Turing test.

I don’t think this is a good test, for this reason:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbNOR6cNgMg

That is, it’s REALLY easy to fake. As someone who works with conlangs daily with whole hosts of linguistically-unsavvy folks, it’s just no contest. It’s easier to create a couple sentences of gibberish that sounds natural than it is to create a naturalistic conlang. On tests like these, the elegant gibberish will win the prize every time.

Of course, if you did have more material, as you suggest here…

> Say, assemble a panel of judges, and for each of a range of languages, nat- and con-, get them to state a degree of confidence for whether it is nat- or con-. One set of tests could be presenting the judges with raw texts, another set could involve glossed texts, and another could involve descriptions of the conlangs.

…it could work—provided the judges actually knew what they were doing. In effect, this would be tantamount to criticism (i.e. this group would be one of the “top reviewers” in the conlang version of Rotten Tomatoes). That is, the judgment will still be subjective. It may be better informed than other subjective judgments, but that doesn’t make it any less subjective.

***

Here’s a question to those who have been following and participating in this thread—something to think about and perhaps to answer: What is the point of the various approaches being evinced here? It occurs to me that different people may be aiming at different goal posts, which will complicate the discussion. That is, which of these is the point:

(a) To determine how natural a given naturalistic conlang is.

(b) To determine whether one conlang is more naturalistic than another.

(c) To define naturalism in conlanging.

(d) To give conlangers a framework for creating naturalistic conlangs.

(e) To help conlangers create more naturalistic-looking conlangs faster.

(f) To determine the quality of a conlang.

Because I’ll admit, I’m mainly talking about (c), but it looks like Jeffrey and Alex are variously talking about (d), (e), (a) or (b)—or perhaps some other point that I’m missing. That is, I haven’t even been attempting to give advice on how to produce a better naturalistic conlang (or how to do it faster). If we’re not talking about the same things, we might have a harder time finding common ground.

David Peterson
LCS Member Since 2007
[log in to unmask]
www.conlang.org

=================================
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(Available September 29th!)

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March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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