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CONLANG  June 2015, Week 1

CONLANG June 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Naturalistic Grammars

From:

John Q <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 3 Jun 2015 00:14:45 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (145 lines)

Jeffrey Brown wrote:

>Recently, on the Conlang forum, there was a thread that mentioned, in the
>midst of a different discussion, the question of whether or not the grammar
>of a conlang was naturalistic. This is a question I have pondered for some
>time, as I am much more fascinated with the syntax and morphology of a
>language, than with its phonology or its conculture.
>
>When conlangers speak of naturalistic conlangs, it seems to me that they
>speak primarily of the way the language sounds, and of whether the
>phonology has the “feel” of having developed naturally over a period of
>time, because of the judicious application by its creator of fictional
>diachronic sound changes.
>
>I think that conlangs grammars can also have a naturalistic “feel” as
>opposed to an artificial one. I cannot define what makes this so, other
>than it is a personal, subjective, aesthetic sense of the language’s
>structure, which I can perceive if I attempt to use the language for speech
>or translation. So, what follows is purely my own personal opinions of the
>naturalism of the grammars of various conlangs.
>
>I. Relexes
>
>Although everyone disparages relexes, one thing about them is that their
>grammars are naturalistic. After all, it is just a relexification of a
>natlang, and a natlang, by definition, has a natural grammar.
>
>II. Mathematical Grammars and Engelangs
>
>Any grammar based on predicate logic, or computer science, or any branch of
>mathematics, does not have a naturalistic feel. Examples are Fith, Loglan,
>Lojban, and Ithkuil (sorry JQ). This does not mean that these conlangs are
>inconsequential or unworthy in any way, merely that when I try to say
>something in that language, it doesn’t feel like I’m speaking a language,
>it’s rather like I’m trying to solve an algebra problem in my head. I am
>aware that are a some people who can speak Lojban more or less fluidly, but
>there are also some people who can quickly solve algebra problems in their
>heads and that doesn’t make algebra a language.
>
>I suspect that my perception is based on the fact (or supposition) that the
>parts of the brain that handle language are different than the parts that
>handle mathematics.
>
>You will note that these are all engelangs. In fact, I cannot think of a
>single engelang that has a naturalistic grammar. But that’s not the point
>of an engelang, anyway, is it?
>
>III. Auxlangs
>
>The most common auxlangs are based on European languages. Their grammars
>are really a regularization and simplification of a Romance grammar, or at
>least of an IE grammar. I find these extremely easy. I can read texts in
>auxlangs I have never studied. And I find their grammars to have a very
>naturalistic feel.
>
>Now, one could retort, that because English is my native language, or
>because I speak several European languages, Esperanto and the like feel
>naturalistic to me because their grammars are similar to English or
>Spanish. But, I have also learned Arabic and Hawaiian, and the grammars of
>those languages are decidedly not IE in structure, yet their grammars feel
>natural to me. I have also studied Japanese, Chinese, and Blackfoot (though
>I don’t claim more than a smattering of knowledge of them), and the
>grammars of those languages, too, feel natural.
>
>There is something about natural language grammars, their combination of
>features or their structure, which, in my opinion, “kicks” the processing
>of the language into Broca’s or Wernicke’s area (or wherever), rather than
>the part of the brain that handles general symbolic manipulation.
>
>IV. Minimalist Languages
>
>I love Toki Pona. Thank you, SL! But it doesn’t have a naturalistic
>grammar. It’s a toy grammar.
>
>V. Exolangs, Written-only langs, or any Non-sequential lang
>
>Human language is oral/aural and is produced by a single channel (one
>larynx, one channel). Any conlang that doesn’t conform to those
>restrictions ends up with a non-naturalistic grammar, in my opinion. But,
>maybe that’s part of the point of an exolang, to come up with an “inhuman”
>grammar, isn’t it?
>
>VI. Really great conlangers
>
>Okay, this is totally subjective, but just as there are great artists among
>composers and novelists, there are great artists among conlangers. Through
>a combination of innate talent, linguistic-aesthetic sensitivity, and a
>perseverance of effort, they have developed beautiful conlangs whose
>phonology and grammar are both admirably naturalistic. I can think of only
>two people in this category. One is Tolkien; the other is living and has
>gone pro. But even if you’re not Mozart it doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy or
>create music.
>
>VII. How to create a naturalistic grammar for your conlang
>
>Let’s suppose you want to have a naturalistic grammar for your new conlang.
>How could you go about it? Here’s a recipe that I’m pretty sure will work
>(though there’s surely other ways to bake this cake):
>
>1. Study the grammars of natural languages and choose grammatical features
>that you especially like. Make a list.
>
>2. Eliminate inconsistencies. If you like the head-final and SOV of
>Japanese, but also the case affixes and free-form word order of Latin,
>you’ve got to choose one.
>
>3. Cross off 40% of the remaining features. Almost for sure, you have too
>many features on your list. We wouldn’t be conlangers if we didn’t like
>interesting language features. Take out 2/5 of your features (or at least
>1/3). You can incorporate them in another conlang.
>
>4. Now, build and describe your core grammar.
>
>5. Sprinkle with a few irregularities for that diachronic zest. Everyone
>savors a few suppletions and portmanteaus. Don’t over-spice.
>
>6. Use your conlang. Speak in it. Write in it. If it doesn’t feel right,
>then reflect on what went wrong and try again.
>
>And so, what I am saying here is that if you incorporate a grammatical
>feature that isn’t present in any natlang, then you probably have
>destroyed, or compromised, the naturalism of the grammar of your conlang.
>If your objective is to engineer a really unusual grammar with heretofore
>unseen features, that’s fine, but if you wish to produce a naturalistic
>grammar, then it’s more prudent to stick with the tried-and-true features
>of natlang grammars. This belief is based on my intuition (admittedly
>unfounded) that the corpus of the world’s natural languages contain among
>themselves virtually every possible natural grammatical feature of human
>language.
>
>Comments? Opinions? Disagreements? (No rants, please)
>
>Jeffrey
----------------------------------------------------------------

No need to apologize to me regarding Ithkuil not being naturalistic.  I myself on the Ithkuil homepage clearly state as such.  Ithkuil is an experiment addressing the idea "even though human language doesn't work this way, what if it COULD work this way . . . .". In actuality, Ithkuil qualifies as an exo-lang, since it's grammar does not work anything like natural languages.

As for your list of features needed to make a language naturalistic, I would add two more:  

1.  Develop a rich set of conceptual metaphors and cognitive frames (as I discussed in my LCC1 presentation), as cognitive linguistics has shown that natural human language is replete with such structures.  In fact, the famous cognitive linguist Dr. George Lakoff has been quoted as saying that the reason he doesn't consider conlangs to be real languages is because of the absence of these two phenomena.

2.  Develop subtle patterns of covert irregularities and cryptotypes (as I discussed in my LCC5 presentation), as again, natural human languages are replete with such phenomena yet very few conlangers have bothered to deal with such covert patterns.

-- John Q.

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November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
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March 2004, Week 3
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February 2004, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
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September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
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April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
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January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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January 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
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November 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 1
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October 1999, Week 1
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March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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