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CONLANG  June 2015, Week 1

CONLANG June 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Naturalistic Grammars

From:

"Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 3 Jun 2015 14:56:59 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (221 lines)

> To me, "covert irregularities" means inconsistencies, and inconsistencies are
flaws.

Glad to see conning is attracting some younger people! :)


On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 12:44 PM, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> To me, "covert irregularities" means inconsistencies, and inconsistencies
> are flaws.
> I'm not a fan of naturalistic conlangs.
>
> stevo
>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 12:14 AM, John Q <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Jeffrey Brown wrote:
> >
> > >Recently, on the Conlang forum, there was a thread that mentioned, in
> the
> > >midst of a different discussion, the question of whether or not the
> > grammar
> > >of a conlang was naturalistic. This is a question I have pondered for
> some
> > >time, as I am much more fascinated with the syntax and morphology of a
> > >language, than with its phonology or its conculture.
> > >
> > >When conlangers speak of naturalistic conlangs, it seems to me that they
> > >speak primarily of the way the language sounds, and of whether the
> > >phonology has the “feel” of having developed naturally over a period of
> > >time, because of the judicious application by its creator of fictional
> > >diachronic sound changes.
> > >
> > >I think that conlangs grammars can also have a naturalistic “feel” as
> > >opposed to an artificial one. I cannot define what makes this so, other
> > >than it is a personal, subjective, aesthetic sense of the language’s
> > >structure, which I can perceive if I attempt to use the language for
> > speech
> > >or translation. So, what follows is purely my own personal opinions of
> the
> > >naturalism of the grammars of various conlangs.
> > >
> > >I. Relexes
> > >
> > >Although everyone disparages relexes, one thing about them is that their
> > >grammars are naturalistic. After all, it is just a relexification of a
> > >natlang, and a natlang, by definition, has a natural grammar.
> > >
> > >II. Mathematical Grammars and Engelangs
> > >
> > >Any grammar based on predicate logic, or computer science, or any branch
> > of
> > >mathematics, does not have a naturalistic feel. Examples are Fith,
> Loglan,
> > >Lojban, and Ithkuil (sorry JQ). This does not mean that these conlangs
> are
> > >inconsequential or unworthy in any way, merely that when I try to say
> > >something in that language, it doesn’t feel like I’m speaking a
> language,
> > >it’s rather like I’m trying to solve an algebra problem in my head. I am
> > >aware that are a some people who can speak Lojban more or less fluidly,
> > but
> > >there are also some people who can quickly solve algebra problems in
> their
> > >heads and that doesn’t make algebra a language.
> > >
> > >I suspect that my perception is based on the fact (or supposition) that
> > the
> > >parts of the brain that handle language are different than the parts
> that
> > >handle mathematics.
> > >
> > >You will note that these are all engelangs. In fact, I cannot think of a
> > >single engelang that has a naturalistic grammar. But that’s not the
> point
> > >of an engelang, anyway, is it?
> > >
> > >III. Auxlangs
> > >
> > >The most common auxlangs are based on European languages. Their grammars
> > >are really a regularization and simplification of a Romance grammar, or
> at
> > >least of an IE grammar. I find these extremely easy. I can read texts in
> > >auxlangs I have never studied. And I find their grammars to have a very
> > >naturalistic feel.
> > >
> > >Now, one could retort, that because English is my native language, or
> > >because I speak several European languages, Esperanto and the like feel
> > >naturalistic to me because their grammars are similar to English or
> > >Spanish. But, I have also learned Arabic and Hawaiian, and the grammars
> of
> > >those languages are decidedly not IE in structure, yet their grammars
> feel
> > >natural to me. I have also studied Japanese, Chinese, and Blackfoot
> > (though
> > >I don’t claim more than a smattering of knowledge of them), and the
> > >grammars of those languages, too, feel natural.
> > >
> > >There is something about natural language grammars, their combination of
> > >features or their structure, which, in my opinion, “kicks” the
> processing
> > >of the language into Broca’s or Wernicke’s area (or wherever), rather
> than
> > >the part of the brain that handles general symbolic manipulation.
> > >
> > >IV. Minimalist Languages
> > >
> > >I love Toki Pona. Thank you, SL! But it doesn’t have a naturalistic
> > >grammar. It’s a toy grammar.
> > >
> > >V. Exolangs, Written-only langs, or any Non-sequential lang
> > >
> > >Human language is oral/aural and is produced by a single channel (one
> > >larynx, one channel). Any conlang that doesn’t conform to those
> > >restrictions ends up with a non-naturalistic grammar, in my opinion.
> But,
> > >maybe that’s part of the point of an exolang, to come up with an
> “inhuman”
> > >grammar, isn’t it?
> > >
> > >VI. Really great conlangers
> > >
> > >Okay, this is totally subjective, but just as there are great artists
> > among
> > >composers and novelists, there are great artists among conlangers.
> Through
> > >a combination of innate talent, linguistic-aesthetic sensitivity, and a
> > >perseverance of effort, they have developed beautiful conlangs whose
> > >phonology and grammar are both admirably naturalistic. I can think of
> only
> > >two people in this category. One is Tolkien; the other is living and has
> > >gone pro. But even if you’re not Mozart it doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy
> or
> > >create music.
> > >
> > >VII. How to create a naturalistic grammar for your conlang
> > >
> > >Let’s suppose you want to have a naturalistic grammar for your new
> > conlang.
> > >How could you go about it? Here’s a recipe that I’m pretty sure will
> work
> > >(though there’s surely other ways to bake this cake):
> > >
> > >1. Study the grammars of natural languages and choose grammatical
> features
> > >that you especially like. Make a list.
> > >
> > >2. Eliminate inconsistencies. If you like the head-final and SOV of
> > >Japanese, but also the case affixes and free-form word order of Latin,
> > >you’ve got to choose one.
> > >
> > >3. Cross off 40% of the remaining features. Almost for sure, you have
> too
> > >many features on your list. We wouldn’t be conlangers if we didn’t like
> > >interesting language features. Take out 2/5 of your features (or at
> least
> > >1/3). You can incorporate them in another conlang.
> > >
> > >4. Now, build and describe your core grammar.
> > >
> > >5. Sprinkle with a few irregularities for that diachronic zest. Everyone
> > >savors a few suppletions and portmanteaus. Don’t over-spice.
> > >
> > >6. Use your conlang. Speak in it. Write in it. If it doesn’t feel right,
> > >then reflect on what went wrong and try again.
> > >
> > >And so, what I am saying here is that if you incorporate a grammatical
> > >feature that isn’t present in any natlang, then you probably have
> > >destroyed, or compromised, the naturalism of the grammar of your
> conlang.
> > >If your objective is to engineer a really unusual grammar with
> heretofore
> > >unseen features, that’s fine, but if you wish to produce a naturalistic
> > >grammar, then it’s more prudent to stick with the tried-and-true
> features
> > >of natlang grammars. This belief is based on my intuition (admittedly
> > >unfounded) that the corpus of the world’s natural languages contain
> among
> > >themselves virtually every possible natural grammatical feature of human
> > >language.
> > >
> > >Comments? Opinions? Disagreements? (No rants, please)
> > >
> > >Jeffrey
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > No need to apologize to me regarding Ithkuil not being naturalistic.  I
> > myself on the Ithkuil homepage clearly state as such.  Ithkuil is an
> > experiment addressing the idea "even though human language doesn't work
> > this way, what if it COULD work this way . . . .". In actuality, Ithkuil
> > qualifies as an exo-lang, since it's grammar does not work anything like
> > natural languages.
> >
> > As for your list of features needed to make a language naturalistic, I
> > would add two more:
> >
> > 1.  Develop a rich set of conceptual metaphors and cognitive frames (as I
> > discussed in my LCC1 presentation), as cognitive linguistics has shown
> that
> > natural human language is replete with such structures.  In fact, the
> > famous cognitive linguist Dr. George Lakoff has been quoted as saying
> that
> > the reason he doesn't consider conlangs to be real languages is because
> of
> > the absence of these two phenomena.
> >
> > 2.  Develop subtle patterns of covert irregularities and cryptotypes (as
> I
> > discussed in my LCC5 presentation), as again, natural human languages are
> > replete with such phenomena yet very few conlangers have bothered to deal
> > with such covert patterns.
> >
> > -- John Q.
> >
>



-- 
Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>

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July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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