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CONLANG  June 2015, Week 1

CONLANG June 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Naturalistic Grammars

From:

Jeffrey Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 6 Jun 2015 09:27:37 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (212 lines)

Alex,
By "history" I meant "political history."
What I am saying is that the statistics compiled by WALS are too confounded
by political factors, as well as geographical/topographical factors, to be
a useful indicator for language construction. What I would like to have is
an understanding of linguistic change mediated *solely* by
anatomical/physiological/neurological factors. In the meantime, the
confounding of the sources of diachrony makes me believe that the best one
can do with the WALS data is simple binary ascertainment: Does this feature
exists in a natlang (yes/no)? It is, as you say, a very coarse measure. I
do not believe, though, that the data is usable as a metric for more.
Jeffrey


On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 6:00 PM, Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Jun 2015 16:34:57 -0700, David Peterson <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> >(3) It doesn’t matter if, for example, a language has [θ]. It matters how
> it got it. For example, Mexican Spanish is like most languages: it lacks
> [θ]. Castellano, however, does have [θ]—same language. It’s exceedingly
> rare, crosslinguistically, but it doesn’t really matter, because we know
> exactly how it got [θ]. In this case, neither fact is particularly
> interesting. Looking at the percentages crosslinguistically rather than the
> diachrony is a mistake, because you’re examining the end result, not the
> process. In the case of Spanish, *ts > [θ] in Castellano and *ts > [s] in
> Mexican Spanish. How common are each of those specific sound changes? Now
> you’re asking the right question.
>
> Sure.  As D'Arcy Thompson said, everything is the way it is because it got
> that way.  I think I could reconcile my thesis with yours -- if a group of
> features shows correlations, which my strong naturalism would bid you
> account for, then there oughtta be some sort of causation (I know, I
> know).  Either one feature affects the other, or some third feature
> historically brings about both.  And looking at history is a good way to
> detect these sorts of correlations.  To put it another way, of the
> correlations of features that natlangs show, many of them are just the ones
> that make internal reconstruction yield sensible results.
>
> On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 00:43:05 +0100, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >On 4 Jun 2015 00:09, "Alex Fink" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >> [I define my "strong naturalism"]
> >
> >Ah, this kind of explains why you want to generate conlangs automatically.
>
> Kind of.  They are related impulses.  I don't expect my generator will be
> able to tell me what the probabilities should be, though; instead, I'm
> having to provide a lot of probabilities as explicit parameters.  Maybe, if
> my historical evolution is sufficiently good (if I ever write it), the
> program will be of use in that respect, allowing experiments about which
> sorts of features it thinks cluster together or what underlying structure
> supports a given surface feature.
>
> >Can a solitary conlanger's solitary conlang exhibit strong naturalism?
>
> Can one do any meaningful statistics with a sample size of n = 1?  Not
> much.  Certainly on a single question like "uses [T]" there can be no
> smoking gun.  And you could pick out a feature rarer than that (maybe your
> language has three contrastive degrees of vowel nasality, which fewer than
> one in a thousand do) but if you pay special attention to the outcome
> you're probably succumbing to the problem of multiple comparisons.
>
> So one way to make the question meaningful for a solitary conlang would be
> to increase the sample size by sampling multiple _features_.  But you need
> some way to consider these disparate features as performances of the same
> experiment.  You could for instance do that by looking at how often the
> conlang's values of the features agree with the constructor's native
> language -- this is the scale on which relexes score low -- or how often
> they agree with the modal value -- this detects something like
> kitchen-sinkiness / overdoing it on novelty.
>
> >Returning to your statistical point, are there natlang features that are
> >significantly underrepresented in conlangs?
>
> I thought once that I should be keeping lists of these things, but then I
> learned of the WALS vs. CALS survey which quelled the impulse to do it
> properly myself, so this'll be a fairly off-the-top-of-my-head list.  It's
> also hard to know how to consider features that are underrepresented 'cause
> people typically don't think about them at all, rather than thinking about
> them and making another choice.
>
> Reduplication has been my go-to answer, but I see that's already come up.
> Cryptotypy in general, ditto.  The isolating end of the morphosyntactic
> spectrum is underpopulated, prolly in part 'cause syntax is harder than
> morphology.  Tone, in any manifestation.  Morphophonology, especially when
> not just patternless on a morpheme-by-morpheme basis.  Syncretism.
> Suppletion.  Free variation in general.  Clitics.  Double-marking.
> Asymmetric negation.  Diversity of types of bi-clausal structures,
> including some of narrow application.  Morphosyntax dedicated to
> participant tracking on the larger-than-one-sentence scale, and other
> features at this scale.  Sociolinguistic-type features with thoroughgoing
> grammatical ramifications, like inflectional politeness or systematic
> vocabulary replacement by register.  Drastic language contact effects (e.g.
> at the Sino-Xenic level).  Properly diffuse polysemy (in the word classes
> that tend to have it).  Number systems that aren't just straight-up base N
> for some N.  Native orthographies with deviation from one-to-one
> sound-to-spelling correspondences, especially multigraphs and
> underspecification.
>
> >Are there overrepresented features that everyone isn't already quite
> >conscious of? The [T] one is well-known enough that, say, one would
> >naturally include it in a parody artlang.
>
> Hm, these is harder to think of offhand.  Alongside [T] I guess one could
> name other characteristically English phones, like [&] or [I].  I suppose
> the overrepresentation of "correlatives" after the Esperanto style is well
> known.  The verb "have", that one's been mentioned.  Relative pronouns.
> Manner adverbs.  Morphological comparative systems with symmetric "more
> than" and "less than" degrees, or for that matter adjectives inflecting for
> degree of comparison in general.
>
> There are some in the WALS vs. CALS thread that didn't occur to me.  For
> instance, apparently the construction of the noun phrase shows systemic
> deviations: patterns like numeral-noun, adjective-noun, noun-genitive are
> overrepresented.
>
> On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 12:32:59 -0700, Jeffrey Brown <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> >More replies:
> [...]
> >Firstly, there are two ways
> >to calculate these statistics. One is by number of speakers, and the
> second
> >is by number of languages. The first one obviously is no good because the
> >number of speakers is based too much on economic or military dominance by
> a
> >handful of countries to be meaningful in a linguistic sense.
>
> Of course.
>
> >The second one
> >is better, but still suffers too much from the accidents of history rather
> >than other, deeper causes. [...] It is not possible to disentangle the
> >linguistic, or neuroanatomical, reasons for linguistic statistics from the
> >historical reasons.
>
> Hm, I think that most explanations of linguistic features which I would
> want to call reasons _are_ historical, so I'm not sure how to contrast that
> with the "linguistic" class.  Everything is the way it is because it got
> that way.  Maybe there's an exception to be made for features reflecting
> hard limits on human cognition -- but even here there are more soft limits
> than hard limits, and so even these biasses would be felt through gradual
> diachronic change.  E.g. a construction which creates too many deeply
> center-embedded sentences wouldn't drop out entirely all at once; even if
> there came to be a discrete constraint against using it twice in a sentence
> (say) this constraint would take time to come to fixation in the speaker
> community; etc.
>
> Oh, wait, maybe by "history" you meant basically _political_ history, of
> which speech community influenced which.  In that case, yes, you're right,
> that is a confound.  But I would note that influence by foreign cultures,
> including of the uninvited sort, is part of the human condition, and this
> has its effect in language, in the whole spectrum of language contact
> effects.  If you dismiss all language contact effects under the rubric of
> "accidents of history" you've strayed from strong naturalism.
>
> In any case, I'm aware of the difficulty of measuring my statistics
> without confounds.  That was the reason for my proviso in my first post
> that you might need to watch the world for a million years to have enough
> accuracy.  But surely the solution is not to _coarsen_ your point of view:
>
> >That is why I have concluded the best one can do is a
> >simpler procedure: Does this particular feature exist in any language? Yes
> >or no?
>
> This doesn't avoid the problem, it just concentrates it.  A very rare
> feature might well be erased from the world through exactly the kind of
> accident you're thinking of.  (Non-paralinguistic clicks e.g. are such a
> fragile feature on earth: outside Damin, which doesn't count, they're only
> found in one language area.  If Bantu had overrun the Khoisan territory
> more thoroughly, and not had a need arising from its avoidance speech for
> phonological distortion methods, there might be no click languages today.)
> In my perspective this means you might write down 0% where you should have
> written 1% for the probability of this feature.  On another feature the
> same situation might bring you to take 50% where you should've had 51%, an
> equally small absolute error.  Your perspective is unfazed by the latter,
> yes, but at the cost of being utterly, night-and-day-wise turned on its
> head by the former.
>
> Maybe more to the point, if one's reason for asking whether one's conlang
> is naturalistic is as a sort of reassurance against one's own inward
> doubts, then a method which will readily yield an unconditional "yes" is a
> handy thing.  But if we're actually trying to exercise discernment, if we
> think it's meaningful to say that one conlang is _more_ naturalistic than
> another, that doesn't help.  I for one do think naturalism should be
> treated as a fuzzy property.
>
> On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 21:10:51 +0100, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> >Off the top of my head, I'd suggest a test of naturalism might be the
> extent to which someone who doesn't know whether it's a conlang or not will
> bet that it is. A kind of conlang analogue of the Turing test.
> >
> >Say, assemble a panel of judges, and for each of a range of languages,
> nat- and con-, get them to state a degree of confidence for whether it is
> nat- or con-. One set of tests could be presenting the judges with raw
> texts, another set could involve glossed texts, and another could involve
> descriptions of the conlangs. One of the judges could be an Alex Fink
> conlang-sniffer computer programme. That might be an interesting exercise
> to do in actuality, not just as a thought-experiment...
>
> Ooh, seconded.  (Though even in the year 2050, when I've finished an alpha
> of my conlang generator, it'd still probably be decades more work to turn
> it into a conlang sniffer!)
>
> Alex, long past his bedtime
>

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August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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