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CONLANG  June 2015, Week 1

CONLANG June 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Complete regularity in languags was RE: Naturalistic Grammars

From:

Leo Moser <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 7 Jun 2015 11:16:30 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (201 lines)

You mention "complete regularity (which is not very naturalistic at all). "

That is of course true. But many natural languages have full regularity in one word-form or another. So regularity to that extent seems IMO quite natural. No need to fear it in creating your naturalistic grammars.

I believe the following are all true.
Every full English verb (not modals) has a regular -ing form.
Every German infinite ends in -en.
Every Spanish plural ends in -s. 

I don't think of examples in Russian, Chinese, Japanese, or French right off.
Were there any such examples in PIE? That might be revealing. And Sanskrit, Latin, etc. ?

Yes, things like Esperanto and Ido probably went too far (all those myriad proper nouns in -o, for example.)

Regards,           Leo

-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mark J. Reed
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2015 4:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Naturalistic Grammars

> Esperanto would be the worst and most artless language ever created, 
> if
judged solely by William Shatner’s performance in Incubus.

Inkubo aside, you could make the case Esperanto is pretty "artless" by design, since Zamenhof's goal of ease of learning (which requires a certain degree of naturalism) included complete regularity (which is not very naturalistic at all).  Even if we stipulate that conlanging is an art, auxlangs are not artlangs.  Writing is an art, and a well-written instruction manual is both hard to create and a thing of beauty, yet an instruction manual is not judged by the same criteria as literature.

On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 8:38 PM, David Peterson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> > On Jun 6, 2015, at 10:22 AM, Jeffrey Brown <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Instead of the lightbulb analogy, let's use playing the piano.
>
> No, this is a poor analogy. If you’re talking about playing the piano, 
> the analogy for conlanging is speaking the conlang (for example, is 
> Actor A better and more convincing speaking Dothraki than Actor B). 
> It’s definitely something that can be measured objectively and 
> subjectively (did they pronounce every phoneme correctly? did they say 
> every word?), but the resultant judgment says absolutely nothing about 
> the conlang—just as if I, someone who can’t play the piano well, play 
> a piece by Mozart badly, it doesn’t mean that the Mozart piece is a 
> poor quality piece. It says nothing about the piece or about Mozart 
> and everything about my ability to play the piano and play that piece of music.
>
> The only reason an analogy like this would work if there were 
> absolutely no possible way to measure the quality of a piece without 
> it being performed. We know that’s false in music (hence the academic 
> study of music theory), and it certainly is false in conlanging. Plus, 
> it would be kind of
> silly: The quality of a piece would change depending on who played it. 
> That is, me playing Mozart would result in Mozart’s piece being 
> considered a very bad piano piece; a professional pianist playing 
> Mozart’s piece would result in it being considered quite good. By this 
> measure, Esperanto would be the worst and most artless language ever 
> created, if judged solely by William Shatner’s performance in Incubus.
>
> > The point being that process and result are different, and that any 
> > assessment (whether objective or aesthetic) is based on the result, 
> > not
> on
> > the process by which it was achieved.
>
> I’ll agree with that, but disagree with what the result is, when it 
> comes to a naturalistic conlang. Let’s say you had some sort of series 
> of sound changes like this:
>
> *V > [-high] / q_
> *q > k
>
> Thus: *qile > kele; *kele > kele
>
> You may argue that the synchronic snapshot of the language presented 
> at the end is the result. I say it is not: The whole thing is the 
> result. The sound changes were chosen specifically, and the resultant 
> homophony that would occur is something that was planned. You can’t 
> ignore the diachrony the way you can in linguistics: The diachrony is 
> itself part of the presentation, and the diachronics should be 
> evaluated along with the conlang. With a naturalistic conlang, I feel 
> the presentation is lacking if this element is lacking—and I usually 
> give those conlangs that lack it a pass (after all, the results may 
> just be the result of random noodling or a computer program, which 
> isn’t interesting—or is interesting in precisely the way that it’s 
> interesting if you dump out a bunch of children’s letter blocks and it 
> randomly spells a word). That, though, is my choice as an evaluator, 
> and is based on my definition of naturalism, which is why the 
> definition is key. If you’re looking for something different, it’s going to change the evaluation radically.
>
> > I posited that utilizing a novel grammatical feature, one that was 
> > present in no natlang whatsoever, would compromise the naturalism of 
> > the grammar. This is like saying hitting the wrong notes on the 
> > piano will compromise the beauty of the performance.
>
> Of course, if you talk about a wrong note in a piano performance, I 
> immediately think of Thelonious Monk. He hits wrong notes all the time 
> (I think we would be forced to agree with this), yet it’s part of the 
> performance, and part of the performance’s charm—almost to the point 
> that playing the piece absolutely correctly would damage the 
> performance. The same is true of Bruce Dickinson’s singing.
>
> That aside, though, I’d suggest that this is a poor way to evaluate a 
> conlang simply because of the way reality works. There are features 
> present in natural languages that weren’t present in natural languages 
> 2000 years ago. If a conlang uses some modern features, it gets a pass 
> as naturalistic now, but doesn’t 2000 years ago? That’s a poor, poor 
> metric by its very conception, which, to me, is enough to dismiss it 
> entirely. After all, one could create a feature that doesn’t exist in 
> any natural language at present, but evolve it as responsibly as 
> possible, and it would fail this metric—until a natural language we 
> speak now happens to evolve the same feature, then, presto-change-o, the conlang suddenly passes the test!
>
> Another problem with this is it doesn’t address how the feature 
> happens to be present in the language, so the judgment will be 
> meaningless. All these features, for example, are present in natural languages:
>
> Verb Stem: mana “to eat”
>
> Present Tense: manaa “eats”
> Past Tense: manab “ate”
> Hodiernal Tense: manac “ate earlier today”
> Distant Past Tense: manad “ate at some time in the distant past”
> Narrative Past Tense: manae “ate in the context of telling a story”
> Perfect Aspect: manaf “has eaten”
> Pluperfect Aspect: manag “had eaten”
> Imperfect Past Tense: manah “was eating”
>
> Etc. If a conlang that looks just like this passes the naturalism 
> test, the test is meaningless—or at least as a sole metric of evaluation.
>
> One way to address this is to use the statistics Alex was talking about.
> With this example, the presence of a distant past tense *and* a 
> narrative past tense would probably, on its own, be enough to raise a red flag.
>
> On the other hand, I expect this inventory would pass Alex’s test:
>
> Verb Stem: mana “to eat”
>
> Present Tense: manaa “eats”
> Imperfect Past Tense: manab “was eating”
> Perfect Past Tense: manac “ate”
> Future Tense: manad “will eat”
>
> So if the test wasn’t a stand-alone filter but was just a tool 
> conlangers could use (e.g. run it through this and see how it scores), 
> it might be useful—kind of like TurnItIn.com. TurnItIn.com maintains a 
> large database of written material and professors paste their 
> students’ papers into it to determine if they’ve been plagiarized. 
> When you do that, it stores the paper, and also returns the percentage 
> that matches other material in the database. Professors are instructed 
> *not* to use it as a simple test of plagiarism, though. After all, 
> enough students write position papers on abortion in the United States 
> that someone is bound to accidentally write the same exact sentence 
> twice. Plus, quotes from other sources are flagged as being identical. 
> The professor, then, goes through the report, sees the quotes flagged 
> and ignores them (provided they’re properly cited), and if an 
> identical sentences pops up, the professor can look at the paper it 
> matches and determine how likely it was that actual plagiarism happened (usually not likely).
>
> So yeah, if you could throw the conlang in and it returned a score, 
> like, “74% likely to occur in the world”, that’s useful to the 
> conlanger. It doesn’t mean anything on its own—and shouldn’t be used 
> as a metric to either praise or critique a conlang—it just might be nice to know.
>
> > ​My original posting was mostly (d), but specifically about 
> > naturalistic conlang *grammars*, and a little bit about (e), also 
> > specifically
> grammars.​
>
> Here I’d say the diachronics are a crucial part of the naturalistic 
> conlang grammar.
>
> > I was looking at the categories of conlangs, and explaining why I 
> > felt
> that
> > some of the categories resulted more often in naturalistic grammars. 
> > In
> my
> > subjective opinion, that is. I think this was an initial attempt at 
> > a framework.
>
> That’s not bad, actually. I’d propose a different model, but it’s nice 
> to have multiple models.
>
> David Peterson
> LCS Member Since 2007
> [log in to unmask]
> www.conlang.org
>
> =================================
> Pre-Order The Art of Language Invention!
> (Available September 29th!)
>
> http://bit.ly/conlang
> =================================
>



--
Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>

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March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
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July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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