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CONLANG  June 2015, Week 3

CONLANG June 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Naturalistic Grammars

From:

And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 18 Jun 2015 23:02:40 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (62 lines)

On 18 Jun 2015 22:29, "Jeffrey Brown" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:18 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > Diachronically, natlangs (for which we have written historical
records)
> > > seem to oscillate around a “sweet spot” of grammaticalization.
> >
> > I don't understand this. What is a sweet spot of grammaticalization? A
> > certain amount per year? How do you measure it? Your further comments
seen
> > to describe a sweet spot of amount of grammar rather than of
> > grammaticalization.
> >
>
> ​Yes, I meant "sweet spot of amount of grammar."​
>
>
>
> >
> > > Part of a
> > > naturalistic grammar is finding that sweet spot for your conlang. In
my
> > > personal opinion, most artlangs are too grammatically complex; the
> > authors
> > > are overly enamored of intriguing grammatical features.
> >
> >
> > Okay, my best guess is that you're talking not about grammaticalization
or
> > grammar size as such but rather about the number of features encoded by
> > inflectional morphology (e.g. number, gender, case, tense, mood,
person),
> > and you like the number to be not too few or too many. Have I understood
> > you? But if so, are there really artlangs that encode features whose
> > manyness makes the artlang unnaturalistic?
> >
>
> ​I am talking about all grammar features, not only morphology. I suppose I
> should use the phrase "pleasing grammar" rather than "naturalistic
> grammar." (This avoids arguing over what the definition of "naturalistic"
> is, and puts the focus strongly on aesthetics.​)

Do you have the same aesthetic predilections among natlangs? Do some but
not all natlangs hit the sweet spot of pleasingness of number of grammar
features? Do some natlangs seem too simple and others too baroque or rococo?

Our experience with natlangs is that the more you study a natlang, the more
you find in it, and that no natlang has yet been studied through and
through or studied to a point of decent understanding. I've always thought
that a naturalistic artlang should ideally aspire to be as complex as that,
or, failing that, to be documented, albeit incompletely, across many
thousands of pages. Do you, in contrast, see conlangs as something like
‘toy languages' that would be spoilt if they mirrored in complexity the
natural phenomena they model, much as, say, board games that gain part of
their appeal from modelling reality lose that appeal when the game models
the complexities of reality overmuch and impairs gameplay? Overly complex
artlangs, tho less complex than natlangs, suffer from impaired 'speechplay'?

If that's what you mean, it seems a rather interesting and original idea.

--And.

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