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CONLANG  June 2015, Week 3

CONLANG June 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Viisyal, was: Logograms?

From:

Alex Fink <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 12:06:47 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

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On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 20:09:56 +0100, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>On 18 Jun 2015 19:33, "Alex Fink" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 16 Jun 2015 10:11:07 -0400, Zach Wellstood <[log in to unmask]>
>wrote:
>>
>> >Viisyal is impressive & aesthetically appealing to me:
>> >http://viisyal.tumblr.com
>>
>> Pity about the click inventory.
>
>Where is it? The side panel that gives IPA for c & q?

That's what I'd seen at the time, yes.  Zach's link
  http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Viisyal
corroborates. 

>> I've said it before, the way clicks are represented in the IPA is
>completely deceptive to the unwary conlanger as to what's naturalistic.
>
>What do you have in mind? That the IPA symbols don't include the click
>accompaniments? And that naturalistic clicks occur in elaborate
>coarticulatory series?
>
>How confidently can we say what's naturalistic with clicks? Since the only
>natlang incidence of clicks is one areal phenomenon in Southern Africa, it
>seems one is extrapolating from what is tantamount to a single example. If,
>say, we had knowledge of only African tone systems, we might be tempted to
>think a conlang with an East Asian type tone system unnaturalistic, and
>vice versa. Maybe your statistical naturalism would deem that judgement
>correct. I suppose what we can say is that having clicks at all scores
>lowish on statistical naturalism.

Last things first, yes, clicks are one of these dimensions on which conlangers collectively err from the statistical norm, i.e. clicks are too popular.  (Labiovelar obstruents might be their underused opposite number.)  But this is also the kind of question where the inherent flaw of the statistical naturalism paradigm is most obvious: we don't have enough data.  I never said statistical naturalism was attainable!  If we make a good library of in-depth grammars of all the natlangs that exist for enough tens of thousands of years, we'll be in a better position to carry out statistical naturalism.  Without this, our plan B has to be looking deeper at the few phenomena we do have to hand.

As such, we do have more data than just one point on clicks.  The multiple languages in a single areal phenomenon usually give more information than just one language does because the systems aren't 100% homogeneous, though of course they can't be treated as independent variables.  Further information can be gleaned by looking at how, phonologically, Bantu adopted clicks -- this one happens to be particularly valuable since Bantu rolled them into an extant process of consonant alteration, which lets us watch which clicks were substituted for which nonclicks, comparatively -- and how it lost them again in the cases where it did.  A little more can be won from the reports of phonetic clicks from stop coarticulation in languages that phonemically lack them: this has been measured in German and observed in some West African languages.  (Damin doesn't count.)

One thing I think is relatively well supported from this is that clicks pattern with non-click occlusives, i.e. stops and nasals; what's more, the click series stands _parallel to_ the whole series of non-click occlusives.  (No surprise, phonetically; clicks are occlusive themselves.)  So, in line with the general preference in phonology for symmetrical systems, clicks preferentially show the nasal / non-nasal contrast, as well as similar phonation contrasts as the stops do.  

Ergo, places of articulation aside, it is naturalistically unexpected that Viisyal shows no nasality or voicing contrasts in its clicks.

I distinguish phonation from accompaniments in general, here.  The Khoisan accompaniments cloud the picture, but the difficulty is AFAIK somewhat independent of the clicks.  Among the non-click onsets too Khoisan languages will often show things like voicing contours or complex articulations with velar ejective second members or similar; it's not completely clear whether to analyse these as clusters or simplices.  Some of the hairier click accompaniments are subject to just the same problem of analysis.  In Bantu, in contrast, where onsets are uncontroversially monoconsonantal, clicks in each place of articulation come in tenuis and aspirated and voiced and nasal and usually one or two more types, again much like the occlusives.  And if there isn't a bright line between phonation and the other cluster-esque accompaniments, well, that's also not special to clicks: there are plenty of North American languages for which one documenter's /t_h/ or /t_>/ is another's /th/ or /t?/, and things like Navajo where the continuant of historical */t_h/ is basically [tx], etc.  

On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 20:59:00 -0400, Zach Wellstood <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>The conlang wikia page on Viisyal is tremendous in detail (
>http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Viisyal). I've followed this conlang for a
>while on Tumblr and its aesthetics are very pleasing to me. 

The logographs are pretty, yes.  The example sentences are quite flavourful, too.  

>Here's what I
>found about the use of hanzi:
>
>"​Behind the scenes, the alphabet was created a-priori.  Ideographic
>characters were based on merging Egyptian Hieratic letterforms with the
>placement of CJK radicals."

Mm.  I don't smell the Hieratic in them.  But I think this is because the renderings of the Viisyal characters are so clean, gothic and sans-serif and of uniform stroke width and with straight straight lines, whereas I've never seen a presentation of Hieratic that simplifies the glyphs to any platonic emic shapes at all, it's always scanned images of actual inkblob shapes.  

Reading further reveals another answer: the Hanzi are the means by which the characters are allotted Unicode codepoints in the Viisyal font.  I suspected this might be the case at first, but the Viisyal text was included in the tumblr posts as images so I couldn't confirm.  Did the creator actually take a CJK font and pick out strokes from extant characters in it to make their characters?

>There is actually a conworld/conculture-internal lineage of the conscript
>given on the page though.
>
>"Old Warlok, the ancestor of Viisyal, created its alphabet based on native
>pictographs. Letter names still reflect the original pictograph, such as
>/kiloku/ "hill" for /k/ based on a triangular drawing of a hill, and /ailu/
>"cradle" for /ai/ based on a drawing of two arms cradling a baby . After
>exposure to the then dominant Old Rotenmuhl empire, Old Warlok adapted the
>character writing system from that language."

Hmm.   One quite interesting idea there, that of a mixed logographic / phonetic orthography where the logography was a later overlay on an older phonetic system.  There's no ANADEW for that, but there hasn't really been the circumstances for one on Earth.  So indeed maybe it might turn out this way.  I reckon the full-logographic, no-alphabet stage would be a necessary transitional stage, though.  

In fact, one thing that struck me as curious about Viisyal is the fact that its logographs are square, like Chinese, but the same square plays no role in the phonetic component of the script.  I couldn't think of any Earthly parallel for this.  In the Sinosphere, the Chinese writing system established the absolute constraint that writing comes in squares, and everyone followed suit: Japanese kana are squares, Korean _syllables_ are squares.  Khitan small script is maybe the nearest to a counterexample -- it's vaguely like Korean in having phonetic glyphs assembled in bundles, but the bundles are whole words with as many as seven units, and with that many units its "squares" get overstuffed and spill out to taller-than-wide rectangles.  But in the Viisyal case, if the alphabet came fìrst, that would pleasantly dissolve the issue.  

The part of this idea that doesn't stand up on inspection is the history of the alphabet!  When cross-language adaptation is not involved logographic systems decay very slowly, and in the first instance they decay to syllabaries rather than alphabets.  If the very oldest glyphs were invented for Old Warlok and Old Warlok also had this style of alphabet, then either the name "Old Warlok" must apply to thousands of years of chronolects, and with a time depth like that the acrophonic correspondences between old glyph and modern letter value wouldn't be clean, or else the speakers are posited to have gone from illiterate to an alphabet all in one leap, which is the sort of thing Mark Rosenfelder couldn't stomach without divine (sorry, ilian) intervention.
  http://www.zompist.com/comment10.htm#invention

>Pity about the click inventory.  I've said it before, the way clicks are
>> represented in the IPA is completely deceptive to the unwary conlanger as
>> to what's naturalistic.
>>
>
>​tsk tsk
>There is some diachronic derivation of the clicks given on the Wikia page.
>
>​English and Ewe have​ fairly productive (nonphonemic) uses of clicks to
>convey pragmatic information, and in these two languages they don't occur
>with any 'naturalistic'  (in the limited sense of the term in this case, as
>And points out rightly) coarticulations that we find in Khoisan.

Right, as do many other languages.  In general, extra-phonological sounds aren't subject to the symmetrising pressures that sounds forming part of the phonology are.  All kinds of weird stuff lurks on these margins, from mid vowels appearing only in calling-forms and ceremonial wordoids in Nuuchahnulth to English 'mhmm' to the northern European ingressive 'yes' and 'no' to cetera.  For the side-channelly stuff, like these ingressives and clicks, it's probably actually a benefit that they are maximally unrelated to phonology proper so that they can be separated out from the speech stream with low effort and easily processed on the side channel.

>Unfortunately, we're not there yet, so the only way of
>having 'naturalistic' clicks is to do what Khoisan languages do. 

As above, I think we can say more.

>I don't
>see the inclusion of clicks as an immediate fault, but they're usually a
>quick dip in the pool of easy exoticism, I think. 

You've hit it on the head there, I think.  

But my critique being one of asymmetry, perhaps it is bolstered by pointing out other asymmetries in the Viisyal phonology.  

For instance, the set of consonants with palatalised analogues is strange and gappy.  That's not bad in itself, in that maybe some of the palatalised consonants resolved to other things, but the particular gaps here are unexpected: for instance, few reasonable processes will leave /k_j/ and eliminate /g_j/ (if anything there'd be a bias in the opposite direction, afaik).  It seems clear that what the creator has actually done is just bogoed it from Japanese: the palatalised consonants that appear are exactly the basic (= without (han)dakuten) palatalisable Japanese consonants, once we include /ts\ s\/.  

The processes of note 3 also mostly seem lifted out of context from Japanese, i.e. not adapted to the compass of the phonology that is their new home.  So /t/ affricates before /u(:)/: why not before /i/? why doesn't /d/ affricate?  And how is /ga/ > /Na/ supposed to have come about?  In Japanese /a/ has nothing to do with this process (AFAIK); it's conditioned just by intervocalic position, where it's a relic of the voiced stops having once been prenasalised.

The final consonant dependences on length are wonderfully weird enough that if I saw them with a fresh eye I'd be intrigued.  But as it is, I find myself expecting there's nothing behind them.

Alex

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August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
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May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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