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CONLANG  July 2015, Week 3

CONLANG July 2015, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Hello, and a newbie question

From:

Baptiste PARIS <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 21 Jul 2015 17:57:28 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (94 lines)

The Spanish estos / esos (/aquellos) correspond to English these / those /
those (farther).
In addiction to indicating the spatial distance, they indicate the
"emotional" distance from the speaker (couldn't find another way to say it).

*Estos políticos = These politicians / Esos políticos = Those politicians
(I certainly won't vote for them).*

But this relates better to the concept of familiarity as I first understood
in your PL1 / PL2 difference than to the  of definiteness.

l don't know any natlang that use paucal nor several plural forms, l can't
help you of that point.
However, this seems a little artificial to me. lf l spoke Gig, l would use
the PL1 / PL2 difference to also mark for familiarity.

Intersting idea, BTW ;-)

P.S: <nitpicker> Which plural would you use for decimal numbers? "*2.5
litre.PL1*" or "*2.5 litre.PL2*"? ls it really the exact value? Do you take
into account the accuracy of the measuring instrument? 2.5 ± 0.1 litre.PL1
/ litre.PL2? </nitpicker>

2015-07-21 12:56 GMT+02:00 Juanma Barranquero <[log in to unmask]>:

> > I understood that PL1 refers to small groups, or people you are familiar
> > with (e.g family, friends, passengers)
>
> Not because you're familiar with them, but because they are a definite
> group; the cardinality of their set is easy to determine. For example,
> speaking about friends I would likely use PL2 unless I were talking about a
> specific group of friends (the roleplayers in my weekly session, etc.), or
> the ones I'm with at the moment or did something with (for example, if I
> went to the theater to see Avengers 2, I went with N people, so PL1). Using
> PL1 to speak generically about your friends will convey the impression that
> you have few friends, I think.
>
> > and PL2 refers to large groups or unknown people.
>
> Or small groups, but non-easily countable (for you), like passengers in a
> bus you just saw in the street. Or groups whose number varies quickly
> (people in a party, in some circumstances).
>
> > In this way, a teacher would use PL1 to refer to their class but a
> > passer-by seeing the students would use PL2. (am I right?)
>
> Yes, not out of familiarity, but because the teacher knows that he has 27
> students in that class, but a passer-by knows only that it is a couple
> dozens or so.
>
> > So, what would use a president/king/prime minister to refer to the
> > population of the country?
> > What about a mayor referring to the population of the city?
>
> Usually, PL2. Even with a full census at hand, they don't really know how
> many people there is in the country or the city.
>
> > They do know an approximate number of people living in the country/city.
> > Would it be enough to use PL1?
>
> Not by default. Not, I think, because they don't know the exact number, but
> because there is *no* exact number (population in something as large as a
> city or country is really never fully specified).
>
> > If not, I think this is too artificial
> > except if "PL1 = paucal" (and not "PL1 = exact number").
>
> Well, that's my fear. That's why I'd like to know if some natlang goes
> along these lines.
>
> > Wouldn't they use PL1 to seem closer to the population, in the same way
> the
> > partner used PL2 referring to the newcomers to keep them apart?
>
> They could use PL1, yes. As I said, it is subjective. If you are a
> politician using PL1 to refer to your city's pop, you're likely ACTIVELY
> going for that close-to-the-people vibe. Of course, if you do it all the
> time, it will likely be seen as too artificial ;-)
>
> PL1/PL2 are not rigid categories (or at least, I don't intend to, supposing
> I keep the system). It's just what you would use instinctively, like a way
> of saying "I know how many" / "I don't really know how many". But in
> everyday speech, pragmatics do affect what you say.
>
> > (see
> > Spanish *"estos*" / "*esos*" maybe?)
>
> Could you please elaborate?
>
> Thanks for your comments, BTW!
>
>      Juanma
>

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