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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 1

CONLANG August 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: No Phonology!

From:

"Mark J. Reed" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 3 Aug 2015 18:28:46 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (284 lines)

> Finally, "nobody is asking you for bona fides." Uh, yeah! Somebody just did!
Although it was called 'intellectual background'. Oh, well.

That's where I think you have misconstrued intent. And wasn't asking you
prove yourself worthy, but merely to help us understand where you're coming
from. Different backgrounds foster different approaches...

Personally, I have absolutely no linguistic training at all beyond a
single-semester intro course in college. It's all self-study, much of it
occasioned by discussions on this list (and the tlhingan-hol one). During
my decade-long hiatus from consigning, I haven't kept up with developments
in the field. So I won't be citing any papers to back up my points.

But you appear to be arguing that speech has some intrinsic properties -
or, at least, the human brain has some speech-specific properties -that
make it work uniquely as a medium for a language, while other media do not,
and must be relegated to secondary modalities.

I suggest that while language may not have evolved in another form, that
doesn't make such languages impossible.  Surely sign language qualifies as
a language?  It's been amply demonstrated that while there are "sign
languages" such as Signed English which are really just transmogrifications
of speech, actual sign languages like ASL are not, but are independent
languages. They even incorproate syntactic mechanisms which have no direct
analogue in speech because speech is linear instead of spatial.  Are you
arguing that these are not, in fact, languages?

Again, not talking about or caring about origins.  ASL may have started out
as a form of signed English; that doesn't change the fact that it is now no
such thing. Most written scripts started out -well, as bookkeeping devices
that didn't really correspond to language at all, but they were usually
developed from there into secondary modalities of speech. However, many of
them now operate quite well as standalone languages independent of any
spoken version. I submit that these are, in fact, languages in their own
right, not just an encoding of speech.  Do you say that is not possible?



On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 6:07 PM, Jason Cullen <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> Hi, Mark,
>
> Thanks for weighing in. I appreciate your feedback.
>
> I don't think I was defensive so much as I felt his line of questioning
> (and rather bizarre claim that I was 'structuralist') somewhat aggressive.
> I don't think the point of such a forum is to present port folio and
> references. I did just check Iggy Roca's Introduction to Phonology (1999,
> not the Structuralist Era), where he makes an identical analysis in an
> Optimality Framework (I'm not a proponent of Optimality Theory [in fact, I
> hate the stuff], but there it is), and this analysis is found in
> introductory textbooks all over the place. So, yeah, I'm not going to list
> my credentials for the same reason that I don't expect people without a
> linguistic background to justify their analysis or opinions with a letter
> of recommendation or a sample of writing... I am much more interested in
> the argument and evidence. However, that being said, I don't know what else
> to say to make it not as 'defensive' as you claimed. I answered his rather
> bizarre questions/challenges (no) and moved on. I didn't challenge him to
> produce his own resume or give an alternative analysis... so, defensive?
>
> Finally, "nobody is asking you for bona fides." Uh, yeah! Somebody just
> did! Although it was called 'intellectual background'. Oh, well.
>
> I will keep it in mind. I do try to be civil. And I appreciate any
> feedback.
>
> Have a good one!
>
> Best,
>
> Jason
>
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 4:57 PM, Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > > Let's see.. No. No. No. This is the first time I've been expected to
> > produce credentials for presenting something virtually ubiquitous in
> > linguistic literature on English, so... No.
> >
> > You seem to be getting defensive, Jason; please let me reassure you that
> > there's no need, from my reading.  And found your statements unusual, and
> > asked about your background solely out of curiosity about to the source
> of
> > such unusual statements.  Nobody is asking you for bona fides to prove
> that
> > your opinion is worth considering, or any such thing.
> >
> > The fact that he found your statements unusual while you seem to think
> they
> > are perfectly boring and obvious suggests a miscommunication somewhere.
> If
> > that's the case, I suggest you refrain from further responses in this
> vein:
> >
> > > Seriously?
> >
> > ... as they are not helpful in remedying the miscommunication.
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 5:49 PM, Jason Cullen <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Monday, August 3, 2015, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Jason Cullen, On 03/08/2015 19:07:
> > > >
> > > >> English, for example, is highly morphological. The simple present
> > > >> indicative 3rd-person singular/-z/ (grapheme {s} with two
> allographs,
> > > >> {{s}} and {{es}}), the Saxon genitive (or ‘apostrophe S’), and the
> > > >> plural are all three distinct morphemes, but with a single phoneme
> > > >> (and three phonetic realizations) and a single grapheme with two
> > > >> distinct allographs.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > This makes me doubly curious. It bandies structuralist notions in a
> way
> > > > that strikes me as having been largely confined to remote backwaters
> > for
> > > > the last 50--60 years, so the first thing it makes me curious about
> is
> > > what
> > > > your intellectual background is. Are you 75 years old? or self-taught
> > and
> > > > not recently? or educated in some interestingly unorthodox
> > structuralist
> > > > refugium? (and if so, where?)
> > >
> > >
> > > Let's see.. No. No. No.
> > > This is the first time I've been expected to produce credentials for
> > > presenting something virtually ubiquitous in linguistic literature on
> > > English, so... No.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The other thing that makes me curious is the specifics of the
> analysis.
> > > Is
> > > > "a single phoneme (and three phonetic realizations)" your analysis?
> If
> > > not,
> > > > where do you take it from? (I agree with it (for some dialects), but
> I
> > > > haven't noticed it in the literature.) And whose definitions of
> > grapheme
> > > > and allograph are these, such that '{{es}}' can be an allograph of
> > '{s}'?
> > > > (And indeed, what notational tradition is this?)
> > >
> > >
> > > Seriously?
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > It seems that people default to semantics; however, I've never seen
> > > >>> such a system work. UNLWS is a good example of a thought experiment
> > > >>> that has gone nowhere.
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> (Logan writes) “That seems a very strong claim without much support.
> > > >> In what sense has it "gone nowhere"?”
> > > >> I use negative evidence: UNLWS has a number of examples, but not
> many.
> > > And
> > > >> paucity of evidence doesn't inspire confidence. The only examples
> I’ve
> > > >> seen
> > > >> have been short sentences, not complex groupings of sentences, to
> say
> > > >> nothing of entire texts. (E.g. a translation of the *Dàodé jī**ng*
> 道德經
> > > or
> > > >> *Hamlet*, for example, are both extremely complex, poetic works and
> > are
> > > >> available in Klingon, or even some original texts.) And in every
> > article
> > > >> I’ve seen, there appears to be examples that trail off with “more
> work
> > > >> needs to be done here,” which is usually a sign that something isn’t
> > > >> working.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > It's also, and indeed probably more often, a sign that more work
> needs
> > to
> > > > be done; it certainly is in this instance. We have busy lives. It's
> > hard
> > > to
> > > > manage to prioritize precious time so as to elaborate projects done
> > just
> > > > for their own sake, especially when you're past the proof-of-concept
> > > stage.
> > > >
> > > > I defy you to come up with sentences UNLWS cannot represent. (Or, I
> > > > challenge you to do so, interested to see if you can come up with
> > > anything.
> > > > I have come up with things UNLWS didn't have a way of representing,
> but
> > > not
> > > > anything it couldn't, which is not really surprising. This is no
> > > different
> > > > than the situation with any conlang, except that UNLWS is probably
> more
> > > > successful at encoding meanings than any other conlang I know.) (The
> > > > language isn't documented well enough for us to be able to tell what
> > > UNLWS
> > > > can represent; I am assuming we'd test candidate sentences by asking
> > Alex
> > > > and Sai to UNLWS them.)
> > > >
> > > > I further defy you to make a convincing case for why UNLWS should be
> > > > predicted to fail. Essentially UNLWS is a notation for predicate
> logic.
> > > So
> > > > are Xorban and, ostensibly, Lojban. So, somewhat roughly speaking,
> are
> > > > natlangs.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> As Carl Sagan once paraphrased a good skeptic, ‘extraordinary claims
> > > >> require extraordinary evidence'. It’s not for me to produce
> ‘negative
> > > >> evidence’ for a half-made claim; rather, it is for the claimants to
> > > >> provide
> > > >> the positive evidence and then undergo scrutiny from peers. Which is
> > > what
> > > >> I’ve been doing. As I said in my original post, I am open to (and
> > > looking
> > > >> forward to) more evidence from those who advocate semantic scripts.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > In what sense is UNLWS making a claim? The claim that it is a
> language?
> > > >
> > > > What is extraordinary about that claim? Why is it so extraordinary,
> so
> > > > hard to believe, that a language should map logical forms to
> graphical
> > > > forms rather than to phonetic forms?
> > > >
> > > > I am not sure what you mean by "semantic script". But if by it you
> mean
> > > > lgs like UNLWS, it differs from other loglangs only in that the
> > phonology
> > > > (i.e. the sentential semenon, the sentential signans) is interpreted
> > only
> > > > graphically and because of this channel difference is combinatorially
> > > very
> > > > different from a phonetically interpreted phonology.
> > > >
> > > > --And.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Because Semantics just isn't logical forms.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jason Cullen
> > > MA Applied English Linguistics
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jason Cullen
> MA Applied English Linguistics
>



-- 
Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>

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June 2009, Week 5
June 2009, Week 4
June 2009, Week 3
June 2009, Week 2
June 2009, Week 1
May 2009, Week 5
May 2009, Week 4
May 2009, Week 3
May 2009, Week 2
May 2009, Week 1
April 2009, Week 5
April 2009, Week 4
April 2009, Week 3
April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 3
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 4
February 2009, Week 3
February 2009, Week 2
February 2009, Week 1
January 2009, Week 5
January 2009, Week 4
January 2009, Week 3
January 2009, Week 2
January 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 5
December 2008, Week 4
December 2008, Week 3
December 2008, Week 2
December 2008, Week 1
November 2008, Week 5
November 2008, Week 4
November 2008, Week 3
November 2008, Week 2
November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
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August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
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October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
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September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
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September 2003, Week 3
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September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 5
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November 1998, Week 3
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October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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