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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 1

CONLANG August 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Glottal stop in German (was: No Phonology!)

From:

Jason Cullen <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Aug 2015 12:54:22 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (93 lines)

>
>
>
> In that case, what determines whether /ng/ becomes [ŋg] (finger) vs just
> [ŋ]
> (singer)?
>

I suspect two things. First, English loves Maximize Onset, where coda
consonants move to occupy empty onsets. (Example: "teach" [tiːtʃ], but
"teacher" [ˈtiː.tʃɚ] (/tʃ/ moves from coda of the stem to the onset of the
suffix, creating a CVCV word). However, English has a constraint */ŋ/ in
onsets. (Which is why so many Americans nearly go mad trying to learn
Tibetan or Cantonese, where you have 'ng' in onsets.) So /ŋ/--> [g]/s[__
(That is, a velar nasal becomes a velar stop when it is in the onset of a
syllable.)


> On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 1:28 PM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > J. 'Mach' Wust, On 05/08/2015 07:14:
> >
> >> On Tue, 4 Aug 2015 15:08:48 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> >>
> >> The German glottal stop
> >>> certainly is not an "ordinary" segmental phoneme: it occurs only in
> >>> syllable onsets, never in codas, and only when no other consonant is
> >>> present in that onset,
> >>>
> >>
> >> Such distributional restrictions can occur in ordinary phonemes.
> >>
> >
> > You're replying to Joerg, I acknowledge, but in my message that Joerg was
> > replying to I hadn't disputed that such distributional restrictions are
> > possible; rather I'd noted that an analysis with a distributionally
> > restricted phoneme is more complicated than the alternative.
> >
> > In English, /S/+C in onsets (_shmuck, shlong, shnozz, shtoom,_ etc.) is
> > restricted to word-initial position. That's not exactly an instance of a
> > phoneme confined to a particular position, but it is an example of a
> > particular phonological configuration restricted to word-initial
> positions,
> > so I accept there are instances of such restrictions.
> >
> > For instance, German (or English) /h/ has this exact distribution,
> >> while /ŋ/ (if it is counted as a phoneme and not a realization of
> >> /ng/) has an opposite distribution, which led to the question why two
> >> sounds are not allophones of each other when they cannot be in
> >> opposition.
> >>
> >
> > FWIW, I would indeed take [ŋ] to be a realization of /ng/ for all
> dialects
> > of English. /h/ is more challenging to deal with: I have an analysis of
> > English in which [h] is a position-sensitive realization of a
> phonological
> > element that isn't itself restricted to those positions in which it is
> > realized as [h], but it's too elaborate to essay a quick and
> comprehensible
> > description here. I don't know German well enough to know whether these
> > analyses would extend to German (-- tho I had supposed that in German
> > /h/=/ç/=/x/, which would not be the case for present-day English (except
> > maybe Scots)). At any rate, to repeat what I said above, the challenge is
> > to find the simplest description; we don't start out with a specification
> > of what is impossible, and specifications of impossiblity enter into the
> > description only if they serve to simplify it.
> >
> > I think there are two reasons why the glottal stop is not normally
> >>>
> >> counted as a phoneme of German: (1) It only occurs in certain
> >> varieties, while others do not have it, and (2) it is not written.
> >>
> >
> > You may well be right, because standard analyses of phoneme inventory
> tend
> > to be based on tradition --- self-perpetuating standardness. But that
> > doesn't mean it's not actually better to not count [?] as a phoneme.
> >  --And.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>
>



-- 
Jason Cullen
MA Applied English Linguistics

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