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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 1

CONLANG August 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: No Phonology!

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 2 Aug 2015 14:33:33 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (85 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On 01.08.2015 20:15, R A Brown wrote:

> On 01/08/2015 18:09, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> [snip]
>
>> This discussion reminds me of that about the "phonology
>> of Plan B" we had a few years ago,
>
> I haven't been following this thread recently.  My attempt
> at humor was misunderstood and it seemed to me to be going
> off into areas which did not particularly interest me -
> besides I'm quite busy with other things at the moment.

Fair.

>> where And said that Plan B - a language of bit quartets,
>> each of which had a consonantal and a vocalic value
>> which were used to pronounce the sequence of bit quartets
>> as a string of CV syllables - had 16 phonemes, while Ray
>> objected to that,
>
> Well, it quite clearly doesn't, if you read what its creator
> wrote of his sixteen quartets:
> "... the particular letters and pronunciations
> chosen don't matter much, and might be changed
> for a non-European audience."

This indeed means that the pronunciation scheme is entirely tangential 
and not really part of the language, and can be changed just as a 
language can be written in different scripts.  It is fundamentally a 
*bit stream* language structured into bit quartets; so if it has 
"phonemes", they are the bit quartets, but these are "phonemes" only in 
the extended sense of the word as when linguists studying sign languages 
speak of "phonemes".  This is a matter of definition, and not of 
language structure.  A battle of words.

> In other words, you can map the sixteen quartets to whatever
> symbols you please and pronounce them however you like.  For
> the purposes of his paper he mapped them as B C D F G H J K
> L M N P S T V Z.   But he might just as well have mapped
> them as ordinary hex symbols, i.e. 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C
> D E F.

Yep.

> He adopted what IMO is kludgey system of pronunciation in
> which "[b]y providing both a vowel and a consonant
> pronunciation for each letter,and using them alternately, we
> can pronounce arbitrary strings of letters without difficulty."
>
> But as Jacques Guy rightly observed: "And I, poor sod, who
> thought a strict CV(V) language would do it."
>
> Of course, mapping each quartet to a simple open syllable
> gives a pronounceable stream without the slightest
> difficulty, as I show here:
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Exp/March2006.html

Yes, that scheme.  I remember.  From which I branched my X-1 project:

http://www.frathwiki.com/X-1

Which has since then died, though I consider recycling it in an 
interspecies auxiliary language in a science fiction universe; but that 
project, too, is dormant.

> What's more, in my scheme each bit in each quartet has an
> actual significance as far as the pronunciation of each
> quartet is concerned   :)
>
> But if the discussion on this thread really has got like
> that about the 'phonology' of Plan B, then I'm rather glad I
> have not been following it closely   ;)

Well, you haven't missed much.  It is mostly about whether the words 
"phoneme" and "phonology" can be applied to languages that don't use the 
vocal-auditory modality.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1

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