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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 1

CONLANG August 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Glottal stop in German

From:

Jason Cullen <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 6 Aug 2015 23:58:11 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (161 lines)

Ok, first of all, @Christophe, I don't know what 'reading last other people
[sic]' means.

 ;-)



Regarding what Mark wrote:



1. "Some linguists, including several folks on this list, hold that the
English phone [ŋ] is not a single phoneme, but the phonetic realization of
the phonemic cluster /ng/."  It's obvious some people on this list hold
that the English phone is not a single phoneme. However, I don't know any
linguists who does hold that, and I already asked if someone could correct
my understanding. (And did with the Saprir reference and another, but it
still seems like some rather old analyses. Sapir also had some peculiar
ideas on phonology. But I digress. I will check those out.)



2. "No-one is claiming that [ŋ] does not exist phonetically, just that

it's phonemically a cluster instead of a separate single phoneme." I never
said otherwise. I just find the different notation systems people use
sometimes confusing.



3. "Perhaps interestingly, you will find that this analysis matches the
intuition of many linguistically-naïve native Anglophones.  But that is
almost certainly because of spelling." I do find it interesting, but I also
don't think the native speaker's intuition is the be-all-and-end-all of
evidence, *pace *Chomsky *et alii. *Speakers beliefs about their language
is a whole other kettle of donkeys! (Saudi speakers of Gulf Arabic have
some of the most bizarre beliefs about their language, vis-à-vis Islam, and
concomitant folk etymologies and interpretations, perhaps even more bizarre
than the Chinese have about their own language.)



4. "Note that this does not preclude the differentiation of "wig", "win",
and "wing", which would still be distinct phonemically as /wɪg/, /wɪn/, and
/wɪng/." Point taken. But as I understand phonology, lexical distinctions
between ‘wig’ and ‘win’ help justify why /g/ and /n/ are phonemes. Having
learned several languages where a velar nasal is clearly a phoneme (e.g.
Tibetan) in both onsets and codas, I have to say velar nasals FEEL like a
single consonant, not a sequence, and proposing invisible phonemes seems to
create entities without necessity. But I admit that’s just a subjective
view.



5. "This phonemic analysis is mostly perfectly reasonable, but raises

questions in some cases.  I brought up "finger" vs "singer"; even more
telling, perhaps, is "sing"/"singer" vs "long"/"longer", where we add -/er/
to two words that both end in -/ng/ and wind up with [ŋɚ] in one case and [
ŋgɚ] in the other, with no obvious explanation for the difference."

As I pointed out earlier, morphology might come to the rescue. {*sing+er*}
involves a lexical verb and a derivational suffix (V-->N), a change in word
class, while the {-er} suffix in *longer* is a comparative, with no change
in word class. These might be neither here nor there, but their apparent
phonetic forms might obscure different morphophonological rules for
different kinds of suffixes. This is merely an observation; it has to be
looked into in more detail and, like I said, I'm up to my eyeballs in visa
prep.



6. "Pete suggested, sarcastically (but I missed the sarcasm), that the [ŋg]
examples were phonemically /ngg/, with no phonological explanation as to
why that would be the case.  Were it a serious suggestion instead of
sarcasm, it would just open up a whole new can of worms with respect to
otherwise-absent English gemination."



I suspect that this has also lead to some of my confusion. Sarcasm is
infamously easy to miss in writing, especially in a medium like email,
where producers of text often knock them out like spoken texts sans
intonation, stress and other linguistic clues, and receivers of texts
scrutinize them as well-crafted literary works, like in our more epistolary
days; also, any kind of humor is especially difficult to read in such a
serious and argumentative forum! ;-)  I thought the Aladdin cartoon,
though, was a good reaction!


FINALLY, Siva: I am not familiar with this idea. I'll have to look into it.
Could you recommend any literature on the topic? Otherwise I can just
rummage around Google Scholar... ;-)


Best,


Jason

On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 11:54 PM, Siva Kalyan <[log in to unmask]
> wrote:

> I see no one has mentioned “archiphonemes”, which would be an obvious
> solution to /θɪnk/ vs. /θɪŋk/; just have the nasal underspecified for
> place! It can pick up its place specification from the adjoining consonant.
> In fact, this sort of analysis is applicable to a wide range of languages,
> precisely for specifying the distribution of [ŋ] (and in Japanese, for all
> nasals in coda position).
>
> Personally I prefer phonemic representations that are essentially
> abstracted phonetic representations, as this makes language learning and
> processing easier to explain—but of course these aren’t the only goals of
> linguistic theory.
>
> Siva
>
> > On 7 Aug 2015, at 7:57 am, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > On 6 Aug 2015 16:29, "Jason Cullen" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Every analysis of English phonology I've
> >> seen, from the Structuralists and Jakobson to *The Sound Pattern of
> > English* to
> >> *The Manual of English Phonetics and Phonology *to Roger Lass's
> >> phonological studies of English to OT approaches, have analyzed /ŋ/ as a
> >> phoneme (or at worst, 'marginally phonemic'). I don't know anybody
> working
> >> in English phonology today who doesn't, including my phonology advisors
> >> Stuart Davis (IU) and Eric Raimy (UW). (If you know anyone who *does*
> > publish
> >> in phonology and sees it as an /ng/ sequence, please let me know!)
> >
> > As explained in earlier messages I don't analyse /ŋ/ as a phoneme, and do
> > analyse it as /ng/. The work in English phonology will be published when
> > it's ready, no time soon. To the best of my knowledge, it was Sapir (in
> an
> > article in Language from about 1925) who first argued for the /ng/
> > analysis. Wells's 1982 Accents of English vol 1 discusses the matter,
> > considers all the issues and IMO reaches the wrong conclusion. I don't
> know
> > where else it gets discussed; it's a fairly well-known topos in English
> > phonology, I think, so there must be other discussions of it.
> >
> > The survival of /ŋ/ in analyses results partly from conservatism and
> partly
> > from the fall from favour of phonological representations that are not
> > merely abstracted schematic phonetic representations. Indeed in
> theoretical
> > work there is an evident reluctance to use phonemic representations at
> all.
> >
> > And
>



-- 
Jason Cullen
MA Applied English Linguistics

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November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
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March 2004, Week 3
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February 2004, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
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September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
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April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
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January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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January 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
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November 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 1
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October 1999, Week 1
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March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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