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CONLANG  August 2015, Week 1

CONLANG August 2015, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Glottal stop in German

From:

Siva Kalyan <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 7 Aug 2015 10:39:51 +0530

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (167 lines)

I’m not sure I have a good reference for archiphonemes, but according to Wikipedia, Trubetzkoy used them. They’re standard fare in Japanese phonology (basically, for describing the value of ‹ん› and ‹っ›). I think Daniel Jones talks about them, too (but I may be confusing it with diaphonemes).

Siva

> On 7 Aug 2015, at 10:28 am, Jason Cullen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> Ok, first of all, @Christophe, I don't know what 'reading last other people
> [sic]' means.
> 
> ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding what Mark wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. "Some linguists, including several folks on this list, hold that the
> English phone [ŋ] is not a single phoneme, but the phonetic realization of
> the phonemic cluster /ng/."  It's obvious some people on this list hold
> that the English phone is not a single phoneme. However, I don't know any
> linguists who does hold that, and I already asked if someone could correct
> my understanding. (And did with the Saprir reference and another, but it
> still seems like some rather old analyses. Sapir also had some peculiar
> ideas on phonology. But I digress. I will check those out.)
> 
> 
> 
> 2. "No-one is claiming that [ŋ] does not exist phonetically, just that
> 
> it's phonemically a cluster instead of a separate single phoneme." I never
> said otherwise. I just find the different notation systems people use
> sometimes confusing.
> 
> 
> 
> 3. "Perhaps interestingly, you will find that this analysis matches the
> intuition of many linguistically-naïve native Anglophones.  But that is
> almost certainly because of spelling." I do find it interesting, but I also
> don't think the native speaker's intuition is the be-all-and-end-all of
> evidence, *pace *Chomsky *et alii. *Speakers beliefs about their language
> is a whole other kettle of donkeys! (Saudi speakers of Gulf Arabic have
> some of the most bizarre beliefs about their language, vis-à-vis Islam, and
> concomitant folk etymologies and interpretations, perhaps even more bizarre
> than the Chinese have about their own language.)
> 
> 
> 
> 4. "Note that this does not preclude the differentiation of "wig", "win",
> and "wing", which would still be distinct phonemically as /wɪg/, /wɪn/, and
> /wɪng/." Point taken. But as I understand phonology, lexical distinctions
> between ‘wig’ and ‘win’ help justify why /g/ and /n/ are phonemes. Having
> learned several languages where a velar nasal is clearly a phoneme (e.g.
> Tibetan) in both onsets and codas, I have to say velar nasals FEEL like a
> single consonant, not a sequence, and proposing invisible phonemes seems to
> create entities without necessity. But I admit that’s just a subjective
> view.
> 
> 
> 
> 5. "This phonemic analysis is mostly perfectly reasonable, but raises
> 
> questions in some cases.  I brought up "finger" vs "singer"; even more
> telling, perhaps, is "sing"/"singer" vs "long"/"longer", where we add -/er/
> to two words that both end in -/ng/ and wind up with [ŋɚ] in one case and [
> ŋgɚ] in the other, with no obvious explanation for the difference."
> 
> As I pointed out earlier, morphology might come to the rescue. {*sing+er*}
> involves a lexical verb and a derivational suffix (V-->N), a change in word
> class, while the {-er} suffix in *longer* is a comparative, with no change
> in word class. These might be neither here nor there, but their apparent
> phonetic forms might obscure different morphophonological rules for
> different kinds of suffixes. This is merely an observation; it has to be
> looked into in more detail and, like I said, I'm up to my eyeballs in visa
> prep.
> 
> 
> 
> 6. "Pete suggested, sarcastically (but I missed the sarcasm), that the [ŋg]
> examples were phonemically /ngg/, with no phonological explanation as to
> why that would be the case.  Were it a serious suggestion instead of
> sarcasm, it would just open up a whole new can of worms with respect to
> otherwise-absent English gemination."
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that this has also lead to some of my confusion. Sarcasm is
> infamously easy to miss in writing, especially in a medium like email,
> where producers of text often knock them out like spoken texts sans
> intonation, stress and other linguistic clues, and receivers of texts
> scrutinize them as well-crafted literary works, like in our more epistolary
> days; also, any kind of humor is especially difficult to read in such a
> serious and argumentative forum! ;-)  I thought the Aladdin cartoon,
> though, was a good reaction!
> 
> 
> FINALLY, Siva: I am not familiar with this idea. I'll have to look into it.
> Could you recommend any literature on the topic? Otherwise I can just
> rummage around Google Scholar... ;-)
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> 
> Jason
> 
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 11:54 PM, Siva Kalyan <[log in to unmask]
>> wrote:
> 
>> I see no one has mentioned “archiphonemes”, which would be an obvious
>> solution to /θɪnk/ vs. /θɪŋk/; just have the nasal underspecified for
>> place! It can pick up its place specification from the adjoining consonant.
>> In fact, this sort of analysis is applicable to a wide range of languages,
>> precisely for specifying the distribution of [ŋ] (and in Japanese, for all
>> nasals in coda position).
>> 
>> Personally I prefer phonemic representations that are essentially
>> abstracted phonetic representations, as this makes language learning and
>> processing easier to explain—but of course these aren’t the only goals of
>> linguistic theory.
>> 
>> Siva
>> 
>>> On 7 Aug 2015, at 7:57 am, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 6 Aug 2015 16:29, "Jason Cullen" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Every analysis of English phonology I've
>>>> seen, from the Structuralists and Jakobson to *The Sound Pattern of
>>> English* to
>>>> *The Manual of English Phonetics and Phonology *to Roger Lass's
>>>> phonological studies of English to OT approaches, have analyzed /ŋ/ as a
>>>> phoneme (or at worst, 'marginally phonemic'). I don't know anybody
>> working
>>>> in English phonology today who doesn't, including my phonology advisors
>>>> Stuart Davis (IU) and Eric Raimy (UW). (If you know anyone who *does*
>>> publish
>>>> in phonology and sees it as an /ng/ sequence, please let me know!)
>>> 
>>> As explained in earlier messages I don't analyse /ŋ/ as a phoneme, and do
>>> analyse it as /ng/. The work in English phonology will be published when
>>> it's ready, no time soon. To the best of my knowledge, it was Sapir (in
>> an
>>> article in Language from about 1925) who first argued for the /ng/
>>> analysis. Wells's 1982 Accents of English vol 1 discusses the matter,
>>> considers all the issues and IMO reaches the wrong conclusion. I don't
>> know
>>> where else it gets discussed; it's a fairly well-known topos in English
>>> phonology, I think, so there must be other discussions of it.
>>> 
>>> The survival of /ŋ/ in analyses results partly from conservatism and
>> partly
>>> from the fall from favour of phonological representations that are not
>>> merely abstracted schematic phonetic representations. Indeed in
>> theoretical
>>> work there is an evident reluctance to use phonemic representations at
>> all.
>>> 
>>> And
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jason Cullen
> MA Applied English Linguistics

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July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
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October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
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February 2004, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 1
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September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
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February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 1
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October 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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